[Info-vax] Request description of UFS for VMS person

[Richard B. Gilbert]

AEF wrote:
> On Apr 30, 3:10 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber... at comcast.net>
> wrote:
>> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>> In article <ae561039-9f98-47a3-8f01-40b615214... at j9g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
>>>    AEF <spamsink2... at yahoo.com> writes:
>>>> On Apr 28, 10:17 am, "Bob Eager" <rd... at spamcop.net> wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 28 Apr 2009 12:37:23 UTC,
>>>>> koeh... at eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wrote:
>>>>>> In article <176uZD2KcidF-pn2-uSusmdQq9... at rikki.tavi.co.uk>, "Bob Eager" <rd... at spamcop.net> writes:
>>>>>>> I needed to use it a couple of times in the early days (33 years ago)
>>>>>>> but not since. My point in mentioning 'clri' is that someone here
>>>>>>> thought that functionality was essential on VMS to tidy up a borked
>>>>>>> directory, and (by implication) that 'Unix' was broken if it couldn't do
>>>>>>> it. In practice, it seems that VMS *needs* it and Unix doesn't.
>>>>>>    Nobody said UNIX was broken if it couldn't do it.  The question was
>>>>>>    why VMS has it, and an answer was given.  It was pointed out that
>>>>>>    other OS needed some way to recover from the same situation (a
>>>>>>    corrupt disctory), but no claim was made as to how that had to be
>>>>>>    implemented.
>>>>> Nobody said VMS was broken! The VMS file system has many advantages. I
>>>>> merely pointed out that ffs, at any rate, didn't seem to need a way to
>>>>> recover from that situation.
>>>> [My apologies if this appears twice. Google Groups told me it posted
>>>> successfully, but that was after a long wait during which I edited my
>>>> response in an external editor. I waited a while and it didn't show
>>>> up. So I'm posting this again.]
>>>> The primary one I can think of is that everything on the volume really
>>>> *is* a file. Everything in the volume is "transparent". In Unix, at
>>>> least the ones I have access to I don't know how to dump the super
>>>> block or inodes. And on one of them I can't even dump a directory!
>>> Again, it is not that Uix won't let it be done, it is that either you
>>> just don't know how or you lack the needed permissions.  If you really
>>> are interested in learning some of this I would suggest setting up a
>>> system or two of your won so you have root privs and play with it.
>>>> So can you or anyone else tell us more of the advantages? How about
>>>> disadvantages?
>>> Greatest advantage is functionality.  Unix doesn't tie my hands.
>>> Greatest disadvantage is functionality.  Unix doesn't tie my hands.
>>> (which could be a real problem if I don't have a clue what I am doing.
>>> I have seen people open directories with vi.  :-)
>> I have had newbies try to edit a directory with EDT!  Truely clueless
>> about VMS.  I wouldn't want to try in Unix; it just MIGHT let me do it
>> but I wouldn't know how to recover.  In VMS I've had to clean up such a
>> mess; delete the corrupted directory and ANALYZE /DISK_STRUCTURE /REPAIR
>>   DKA100:.  Then create a replacement for the corrupted directory and
>> populate it with the files from [SYSLOST], inform the user just how he
>> will DIE if he does it again.
>>
>> <snip>
> 
> What corrupted directory? If you edit a .dir;1 file and save it, you
> get a .dir;2 file, which is treated by RMS as any old file. The
> original .dir;1 still works. Now if they additionally RENAME the .dir
> files, then you can get in trouble.
> 
> AEF

Excuse me for not knowing the details.  I never tried to edit a 
directory myself!

In the case I wrote about, I was told that students had tried to edit 
their directory.  I don't know if that was true or not but the directory 
was well and truly clobbered!

I repaired several of these by deleting the directory in question 
followed by ANALYZE_DISK /REPAIR and move all files in [SYSLOST] 
belonging to stupid newbie into [STUPID_NEWBIE].

Eventually, I asked the Help Desk to alter the documentation supplied to 
the users to explain that directories could not be edited.  That pretty 
mush solved that problem but managing a system used by the utterly 
clueless can get very interesting!  This was back in 1998 when a lot of 
the students had never had access to a computer before.