[Info-vax] "Shanghai Stock Exchange" and OpenVMS

[Bill Gunshannon]

In article <05b548fd-8d1f-48c9-80c4-777bf5f6c37c at q35g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>,
	AEF <spamsink2001 at yahoo.com> writes:
> On Jan 22, 8:41 pm, billg... at cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>> In article <abd32391-46d6-49e4-aa1c-58d74dcc7... at p2g2000prn.googlegroups.com>,
>>         AEF <spamsink2... at yahoo.com> writes:
>> > On Jan 22, 3:31 pm, billg... at cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>> >> In article <CKqdnel_5rWYS-XUnZ2dnUVZ_v_in... at giganews.com>,
>> >>         "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber... at comcast.net> writes:
>>
>> >> > Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> >> >> In article <0005d0dd$0$2088$c3e8... at news.astraweb.com>,
>> >> >>        JF Mezei <jfmezei.spam... at vaxination.ca> writes:
>> >> >>> Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>>
>> >> >>>> You can safely plug them in and turn them on.  It's when you connect
>> >> >>>> them to a network that you have to worry about "electronic organisms"
>> >> >>>> infecting your Windows systems.
>> >> >>> This week's virus can be transmitted when you plug in an USB key.
>>
>> >> >>> Sony managed to infect Windows machines when the user inserted a MUSIC
>> >> >>> CD into the machines (that rootkit thing).
>>
>> >> >>> So leaving a Windows box unconnected to a network is not a garantee that
>> >> >>>  it won't be infected.
>>
>> >> >> And all of these exploits can be prevented by proper configuration of
>> >> >> Windows.
>>
>> >> >> bill
>>
>> >> > And how many people know how to "properly configure Windows"???
>>
>> >> How many know how to "properly configure VMS"?
>>
>> >> > Where is this "proper configuration" documented?  The last time I looked
>> >> > Windows was shipping without any "documentation".
>>
>> >> Well, you can get docs from NIST specifically covering security.  And then
>> >> there are the checklists from DISA that are publicly available.  And, being
>> >> as we are talking about supposed professionals in major corporations and
>> >> not your momma's PC,  if they don't already know where to find this stuff
>> >> they certainly should know how to go out and find it.  Even Google finds
>> >> piles of references including the stuff from NIST.
>>
>>
>> >> - Show quoted text -
>>
>> > Hi Bill,
>>
>> > Well, it sounds like Windows PC's/servers come seriously misconfigured
>> > right out of the box! And it appears to be a rather big deal to
>> > configure them properly.
>>
>> Yes, they are misconfigured badly right out of the box and no, it is
>> not a big deal to fix that.  Especially for someone claiming to be a
>> professional.
>>
>> >                           Is this true for other OSes?
>>
>> Depends on who you ask.  The OpenBSD folks think all the others come
>> misconfigured.  :-)
>>
>> >                                                        Is VMS seriously
>> > misconfigured right out of the box?
>>
>> Who would know?  Most of the VMS systems I have seen are pretty much
>> useless (from a user standpoint) right out of the box.  You have to
>> do a lot that is not needed on other systems before a user can do
>> anything with it.
> 
> Wait a minute. Are you limiting this discussion to front-end and home
> use? What about VMS as a back-end?

No, backend machines have users, too.  What's a machine without users? A
doorstop?  But, "right out of the box" VMS has no applications at all.
Oh wait, I guess you get TPU. 

> 
>> > With VMS you can get security info right out of the manuals that come
>> > with it!
>>
>> What manuals?  Oh, you mean on the CD.  And how does the user get at those?
>> They are locked in the sysmanager desk.  :-)  And, to be quite honest, I
>> have never found the VMS manuals to be all that readable or easy to
>> locate things in.  Guess it depends on the style of manuals you are used
>> to.
> 
> Well, I thought the User Manuals were pretty good (except for logical
> name access modes and that stuff about SPAWN and "non-record-oriented
> process-permament files (NRO PPFs)". I found the Manager manuals a
> little worse and was not happy with the Programmer manuals, but only
> because they one I used -- the one that described system services,
> like translating a DCL symbol or logical name in Fortran or other
> languauge of that level -- doesn't tell you which modules you have to
> include! If you're lucky, there's an example to show you. Maybe the
> other P manuals are better.

Like I said, probably depends on what your used to.  I have never found the
VMS manuals particularly usable.  I can usually figure it out, but I am
much more likely to find an answer using Google than a manual.

> 
>>
>> >           No hunting down stuff at NIST and such.
>>
>> It might interest you to know that DISA has (had) a checklist for VMS.
>> Of course, when I asked if there was interest in updating it I was told
>> that wasn't necessary as they were dropping any interest in VMS.
>>
>> >                                                   OK, they may not have
>> > the exact details for various pre-defined levels of security, but you
>> > can go through the Security Manual and do a lot more than what comes
>> > with Windows servers. And do these NIST documents explain how to
>> > actually do any of this in Windows? (Well, maybe some manuals like
>> > that do come with it -- do tell.)
>>
>> Yes, they do.  As do the DISA STIG's and Checklists.
> 
> OK.
> 
>> > This reminds me of one of my main gripes about Windows: no
>> > documentation to browse. What I mean by "browse" is not to look for
>> > help on fixing a particular problem you happen to have, but to just
>> > read something like the VMS User's manual and just learn what the OS
>> > can do and how to do it. For example, with Windows' Outlook Advanced
>> > Find, you can put semicolons between search words and it changes the
>> > Boolean logic from AND to OR. How do I know this? I happened to
>> > stumble across it in a document written by someone who has nothing to
>> > do with Microsoft and was writing about some other particular topic
>> > (It might have been "Escape from the Mousetrap. I'll hunt it down
>> > later . . . maybe.) Who knows what other cool features we don't know
>> > about? What secret Microsoft doc even mentions this and if there is
>> > such, why should I have to, and how would I know to, hunt for it? And
>> > where's the secret documentation for all the MS-DOS commands, esp. the
>> > MS-DOS commands I don't even know exist until a Windows Admin tells me
>> > in response to a question I have for which I don't even know that the
>> > answer is to run some secret MS-DOS command (not to mention the fact
>> > that I need to use the MS-DOS command window in the first place!)?
>>
>> Funny, I have the same resources as everyone else and I haven't
>> had any problem finding answers.  Sure, they don't come with
> 
> What answers are you talking about? I gave a specific example of the
> secret semicolon operator in Adavanced Find. Just which Windows
> manual, be it a Web page, CD, barn door, or what have you, can you
> learn this secret in? How did you even know there was such a secret to
> know?! I'm not talking about troubleshooting. I'm talking about
> learning about features that aren't obvious, such as the semicolon
> operator.

I thought we were talking about securing Windows.  I have never needed
to do more than a superficial search on Windows so I really don't know
anything about the syntax and have never searched for help with it.

> 
> With the VMS CD or the docs on the Net, 

On the net?  Isn't that where I said to look for Windows information?

>                                         you can at least peruse them
> and learn all the commands and utilities and such and what they do.

Maybe you can, but as i said, I have never found the format of the
VMS docs to be all that clear or usable.  YMMV.

> Can you do this with Windows? What can I read (and where) that
> documents all the secrets such as the semicolon operator, the NET
> STATISTICS command, e.g.? 

Probably on the same "Net" you said to use for VMS.  Microsoft has
thousands of webpages although I usually tend to find what I need
elswhere as their docs aren't any better than VMS's.  I have always
favored the docs i get from O'Reilly.  And, yes, I have bought real
documentation from MS.  They do have it if you want to spend the money.
And before you throw out that it comes "free" with VMS, compare the prices
of the two OSes.  then tell me that anything extra comes free.

>                             What other features like the semicolon are
> most of us missing because we have to hope we stumble across them? I'm
> talking about a reference or manual -- such as the DCL Dictionary or
> the User's Manual -- that documents all these features . . . for
> USERs, not system admins.

"Windows XP in a Nutshell"?  :-)

> 
> > real books.  That's nothing new.  AT&T stopped delivering books
>> with Unix at SYS V.  You bought your documentation from Prentice-
>> Hall.  Same is tru of Windows.  Therea re a lot of sources for
>> books if you really want them.  I guess it's a matter of keeping
>> the cost down.  VMS used to ship with real books but no longer does.
>> Now it comes with one set of documentation CD's which are seldom,
>> if ever, available outside the datacenter.  And the one real big
>> difference is there are no third party books on VMS available at
>> places like Barnes & Noble.
> 
> OK, what book would I have to buy to have learn about the semicolon
> operator; the fact that there *is* such an operator (otherwise how
> would I even know to hunt it down); and other well-kept, possibly
> useful, secret comands, operators, and what have you?

Never having looked for that particular concept, I can't possibly say.
But I would guess one of the O'Reilly "Nutshell" books would probably
have it.

> 
>> > Even OS X has this problem. That's why you need the David Pogue books
>> > (well, at least one of them). I guess home computers just don't come
>> > with docs like VMS (and I'm sure other OSes) has -- stuff you can just
>> > sit down and read and learn all the features about all the commands
>> > (well, mostly).
>>
>> How do you "just sit down and read"?  I last set of actual VMS books I
>> are at least 10 years old.  Now, if you can afford the tomer and paper
>> I suppose you could print your own, but it wan't that long ago even
>> these only came in bookreader format and could not be printed.
> 
> You can read the manuals on the Net. OK, it's not as comfrotable as
> reading them in print. 

How do you read them on the net when your are trying to get your VMS
system set up and all you have is a VT420 as  a terminal?  Or did we
forget that by default VMS has no user applications?  In any event,
if your resource for VMS is the net, why can't you accept the same for
Windows or even Unix?

>                        But I actually did this once at a physics lab I
> was visiting. I had to copy a whole bunch of tapes. And each took
> about 10 min. So I had nothing to do between tapes. So, to take
> advantage of this waiting time I read everything that looked useful or
> interesting in the DCL dictionary and the EDT reference manual. I made
> a big step forward that day.

And considering how ulikely I would be to actually need any of that
information I would have considered it a waste of time.  If I need
to read to kill time Tom Clancy is much more useful.

> 
>> A lot of this stuff does not look nearly as rosy to outsiders as people
>> here seem to think.
> 
> Whatever.

You know, that's usually what I hear whenever I try to tell outsiders about
VMS.  :-)  They all see it pretty much the same as they see my PDP-11's.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999 at cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>