[Info-vax] "Shanghai Stock Exchange" and OpenVMS

[John Smith (not the one @ HP)]

"AEF" <spamsink2001 at yahoo.com> wrote in message 
news:05b548fd-8d1f-48c9-80c4-777bf5f6c37c at q35g2000vbi.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 22, 8:41 pm, billg... at cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>> In article 
>> <abd32391-46d6-49e4-aa1c-58d74dcc7... at p2g2000prn.googlegroups.com>,
>>         AEF <spamsink2... at yahoo.com> writes:
>> > On Jan 22, 3:31 pm, billg... at cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>> >> In article <CKqdnel_5rWYS-XUnZ2dnUVZ_v_in... at giganews.com>,
>> >>         "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber... at comcast.net> writes:
>>
>> >> > Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> >> >> In article <0005d0dd$0$2088$c3e8... at news.astraweb.com>,
>> >> >>        JF Mezei <jfmezei.spam... at vaxination.ca> writes:
>> >> >>> Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>>
>> >> >>>> You can safely plug them in and turn them on.  It's when you 
>> >> >>>> connect
>> >> >>>> them to a network that you have to worry about "electronic 
>> >> >>>> organisms"
>> >> >>>> infecting your Windows systems.
>> >> >>> This week's virus can be transmitted when you plug in an USB key.
>>
>> >> >>> Sony managed to infect Windows machines when the user inserted a 
>> >> >>> MUSIC
>> >> >>> CD into the machines (that rootkit thing).
>>
>> >> >>> So leaving a Windows box unconnected to a network is not a 
>> >> >>> garantee that
>> >> >>>  it won't be infected.
>>
>> >> >> And all of these exploits can be prevented by proper configuration 
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> Windows.
>>
>> >> >> bill
>>
>> >> > And how many people know how to "properly configure Windows"???
>>
>> >> How many know how to "properly configure VMS"?
>>
>> >> > Where is this "proper configuration" documented?  The last time I 
>> >> > looked
>> >> > Windows was shipping without any "documentation".
>>
>> >> Well, you can get docs from NIST specifically covering security.  And 
>> >> then
>> >> there are the checklists from DISA that are publicly available.  And, 
>> >> being
>> >> as we are talking about supposed professionals in major corporations 
>> >> and
>> >> not your momma's PC,  if they don't already know where to find this 
>> >> stuff
>> >> they certainly should know how to go out and find it.  Even Google 
>> >> finds
>> >> piles of references including the stuff from NIST.
>>
>> >> bill
>>
>> >> --
>> >> Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three 
>> >> wolves
>> >> billg... at cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
>> >> University of Scranton   |
>> >> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>  - Hide 
>> >> quoted text -
>>
>> >> - Show quoted text -
>>
>> > Hi Bill,
>>
>> > Well, it sounds like Windows PC's/servers come seriously misconfigured
>> > right out of the box! And it appears to be a rather big deal to
>> > configure them properly.
>>
>> Yes, they are misconfigured badly right out of the box and no, it is
>> not a big deal to fix that.  Especially for someone claiming to be a
>> professional.
>>
>> >                           Is this true for other OSes?
>>
>> Depends on who you ask.  The OpenBSD folks think all the others come
>> misconfigured.  :-)
>>
>> >                                                        Is VMS seriously
>> > misconfigured right out of the box?
>>
>> Who would know?  Most of the VMS systems I have seen are pretty much
>> useless (from a user standpoint) right out of the box.  You have to
>> do a lot that is not needed on other systems before a user can do
>> anything with it.
>
> Wait a minute. Are you limiting this discussion to front-end and home
> use? What about VMS as a back-end?
>
>> > With VMS you can get security info right out of the manuals that come
>> > with it!
>>
>> What manuals?  Oh, you mean on the CD.  And how does the user get at 
>> those?
>> They are locked in the sysmanager desk.  :-)  And, to be quite honest, I
>> have never found the VMS manuals to be all that readable or easy to
>> locate things in.  Guess it depends on the style of manuals you are used
>> to.
>
> Well, I thought the User Manuals were pretty good (except for logical
> name access modes and that stuff about SPAWN and "non-record-oriented
> process-permament files (NRO PPFs)". I found the Manager manuals a
> little worse and was not happy with the Programmer manuals, but only
> because they one I used -- the one that described system services,
> like translating a DCL symbol or logical name in Fortran or other
> languauge of that level -- doesn't tell you which modules you have to
> include! If you're lucky, there's an example to show you. Maybe the
> other P manuals are better.
>
>>
>> >           No hunting down stuff at NIST and such.
>>
>> It might interest you to know that DISA has (had) a checklist for VMS.
>> Of course, when I asked if there was interest in updating it I was told
>> that wasn't necessary as they were dropping any interest in VMS.
>>
>> >                                                   OK, they may not have
>> > the exact details for various pre-defined levels of security, but you
>> > can go through the Security Manual and do a lot more than what comes
>> > with Windows servers. And do these NIST documents explain how to
>> > actually do any of this in Windows? (Well, maybe some manuals like
>> > that do come with it -- do tell.)
>>
>> Yes, they do.  As do the DISA STIG's and Checklists.
>
> OK.
>
>> > This reminds me of one of my main gripes about Windows: no
>> > documentation to browse. What I mean by "browse" is not to look for
>> > help on fixing a particular problem you happen to have, but to just
>> > read something like the VMS User's manual and just learn what the OS
>> > can do and how to do it. For example, with Windows' Outlook Advanced
>> > Find, you can put semicolons between search words and it changes the
>> > Boolean logic from AND to OR. How do I know this? I happened to
>> > stumble across it in a document written by someone who has nothing to
>> > do with Microsoft and was writing about some other particular topic
>> > (It might have been "Escape from the Mousetrap. I'll hunt it down
>> > later . . . maybe.) Who knows what other cool features we don't know
>> > about? What secret Microsoft doc even mentions this and if there is
>> > such, why should I have to, and how would I know to, hunt for it? And
>> > where's the secret documentation for all the MS-DOS commands, esp. the
>> > MS-DOS commands I don't even know exist until a Windows Admin tells me
>> > in response to a question I have for which I don't even know that the
>> > answer is to run some secret MS-DOS command (not to mention the fact
>> > that I need to use the MS-DOS command window in the first place!)?
>>
>> Funny, I have the same resources as everyone else and I haven't
>> had any problem finding answers.  Sure, they don't come with
>
> What answers are you talking about? I gave a specific example of the
> secret semicolon operator in Adavanced Find. Just which Windows
> manual, be it a Web page, CD, barn door, or what have you, can you
> learn this secret in? How did you even know there was such a secret to
> know?! I'm not talking about troubleshooting. I'm talking about
> learning about features that aren't obvious, such as the semicolon
> operator.
>
> With the VMS CD or the docs on the Net, you can at least peruse them
> and learn all the commands and utilities and such and what they do.
> Can you do this with Windows? What can I read (and where) that
> documents all the secrets such as the semicolon operator, the NET
> STATISTICS command, e.g.? What other features like the semicolon are
> most of us missing because we have to hope we stumble across them? I'm
> talking about a reference or manual -- such as the DCL Dictionary or
> the User's Manual -- that documents all these features . . . for
> USERs, not system admins.
>
> > real books.  That's nothing new.  AT&T stopped delivering books
>> with Unix at SYS V.  You bought your documentation from Prentice-
>> Hall.  Same is tru of Windows.  Therea re a lot of sources for
>> books if you really want them.  I guess it's a matter of keeping
>> the cost down.  VMS used to ship with real books but no longer does.
>> Now it comes with one set of documentation CD's which are seldom,
>> if ever, available outside the datacenter.  And the one real big
>> difference is there are no third party books on VMS available at
>> places like Barnes & Noble.
>
> OK, what book would I have to buy to have learn about the semicolon
> operator; the fact that there *is* such an operator (otherwise how
> would I even know to hunt it down); and other well-kept, possibly
> useful, secret comands, operators, and what have you?
>
>> > Even OS X has this problem. That's why you need the David Pogue books
>> > (well, at least one of them). I guess home computers just don't come
>> > with docs like VMS (and I'm sure other OSes) has -- stuff you can just
>> > sit down and read and learn all the features about all the commands
>> > (well, mostly).
>>
>> How do you "just sit down and read"?  I last set of actual VMS books I
>> are at least 10 years old.  Now, if you can afford the tomer and paper
>> I suppose you could print your own, but it wan't that long ago even
>> these only came in bookreader format and could not be printed.
>
> You can read the manuals on the Net. OK, it's not as comfrotable as
> reading them in print. But I actually did this once at a physics lab I
> was visiting. I had to copy a whole bunch of tapes. And each took
> about 10 min. So I had nothing to do between tapes. So, to take
> advantage of this waiting time I read everything that looked useful or
> interesting in the DCL dictionary and the EDT reference manual. I made
> a big step forward that day.
>
>> A lot of this stuff does not look nearly as rosy to outsiders as people
>> here seem to think.
>
> Whatever.
>
> AEF


Every OS and application I've ever used has at least one undocumented 
command or modifier.

Since much documentation is available electronically these days, I don't 
have much issue with doing a Google search for it, or hunting it down on a 
VMS CONOLD CD.

Do I prefer paper-based? In some ways, yes. My old blue, orange, and gray 
walls of documentation had lots of post-it notes and annotations scrawled in 
the pages - which actually made it easier for the person after me to find 
relevant information quickly and understand some issues more thoroughly.