[Info-vax] Real Usenet clients, was: Re: backups and compaction or nocompaction might be better

[Stephen Hoffman]

On 2013-02-01 11:27:19 +0000, Phillip Helbig---undress to reply said:

> In article <keerv9$k0n$1 at dont-email.me>, Stephen Hoffman
> <seaohveh at hoffmanlabs.invalid> writes:
> 
>>> But throwing out good old stuff,
>>> be it hardware or software or customs in favour of new stuff just
>>> because it is new, even if it isn't good---I don't see the point.
>> 
>> Not looking around see if the new stuff can solve your problems better?
>> That's what makes sad.   That you haven't looked around to learn what
>> UTF-8 or MIME can bring,
> 
> They have their uses, yes.  But if a text is 7-bit ASCII, why use UTF or
> mime or encode it etc etc.

A tool that's sufficiently cogniscent can certainly select the subset, 
though not all will.  But you're not having trouble with those subset 
documents. You'lre having trouble with documents that are using UTF-8.  
Which leaves you the choice of successfully everybody to switch to what 
you what — and an Internet reversion to seven-bit ASCII is not going to 
happen — or you get to read and access less and less of what's around.  
This is part of what dragged me off of VMS as a deskop, too.

> 
>> or to look at systems that are smaller, or
>> simpler to manage, or that consume less power, or to tools and services
>> that are portable, or that are more ubiquitous.
> 
> What are the realistic options?  Obviously, coming from VMS I shouldn't
> go for another niche product, so it's basically Windows, Linux or Apple.
> Windows means that I have to be constantly up-to-date on anti-virus
> software.  Sorry, a system which can be infected within seconds if
> exposed to the internet is obviously so poorly designed from the ground
> up that I don't want to waste time with that.  Gnu/Linux?  RMS says that
> I commit crimes against humanity, so I will be avoiding his cronies as
> much as possible.  Apple?  I actually like the concept---similar to DEC,
> actually, with hardware, software and applications all from one
> place---but if I go that route I would like to go all the way.  However,
> Apple have apparently been taken under the control of the Daughters of
> the American Revolution, not only not allowing some apps which are
> capable of displaying nudity or whatever, but bowldlerizing books and
> music.  No, not my cup of tea.  What is left?

You've been listening to sales far too much, and haven't been looking 
around and haven't been trying other stuff.  Scrape the FUD off the 
discussion, and have a serious look around.

Remember too that VMS isn't immune to malware.  For instance, the most 
recent vulnerable Java JVM is still enabled on VMS, while it's locked 
out on OS X pending an update from Oracle.  (Are folks beyond 
spearphishers likely to target VMS here?  No.)  At worst, the JVM will 
probably tip over, if the browser has the plug-in enabled.  But the JVM 
is vulnerable.  Is that the only attack against VMS?  No.  Everybody's 
a target.  It's just whether you're an individual target, or somebody 
that can get caught in a dragnet.

VMS itself is also comparatively difficult to manage and troubleshoot.  
VMS is a hassle for even experienced users.  It reminds me of RHEL 
around version six or so, for the arcana required to make good use of 
it.  In your case, witness your various SCSI questions, your current 
AlphaStation RAM question, your clustering questions, your 
errors-getting-logged question, and the rest.    These are not uncommon 
questions and not uncommon requests, yet resolving them is not easy, 
and in many cases not automatic.  That's a serious problem for an 
operating system and the hardware involved, for your usage.  You're 
clearly doing a whole lot of work here, and are very dependent on the 
community to keep your servers running.

> 
>> Better mail servers,
>> or hosted services, or any number of innovations.  There's a whole lot
>> of really cool stuff available, stuff that can be much easier than what
>> you're using now, or much more capable, and sometimes both.
> 
> Actually, VMS can do most of what I need, and as long as moving to
> another platform, or running two in parallel, is more trouble than its
> worth, then I see no reason to go that way.  It's not a matter of just
> doing something new; my VMS stuff (at least the "data" if not the
> "programs") needs to be migrated as well.

Yeah; that's the "fun" of porting.  A number of folks will argue that's 
why VMS is even still around, too.  Conversely, a well chosen port 
provides benefits in other directions.

What finally got me to port desktops was the effort involved in dealing 
with the common documents, dealing with spam, and related.  catdoc and 
xpdf only got me so far, and strapping together and maintaining the 
necessary pieces started to resemble the olympic yak-shaving event.

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