[Info-vax] 1 year.

[IanD]

On Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 1:06:32 PM UTC+10, David Froble wrote:
> IanD wrote:
> > On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 5:10:49 AM UTC+10, Hans Vlems wrote:
> >> Good, I like a clear, direct statement and your reasoning is sound.
> >> Now only hobbyists run a VAX and there is no money there (and even less at a business that relies on them).
> >> But Jan-Erik raises a point about Alpha. Work on it that won't generate turnover now but will preserve a customer base for you later on.
> >> How about subcontracting work on alpha/vms, test it on limited platforms and supply it with limited wartanty?
> >> Hans
> > 
> > We are stuck on Alpha
> 
> Is that a business decision or a technical decision?
> 
> All of our customers are using itanics.  It was a good business 
> decision, and a good technical decision.  They do what the businesses 
> need.  Personally, I'm not a fan of IA-64, for multiple reasons.  But, 
> when advising customers, the task is to give them advice that is best 
> for them.
> 
> > The business has no plans of moving to Itanium.
> 
> What is the reason for that?  Something not available?
> 
> > I doubt they can wait
> > for x86 either going by the recent chatter unless there was a
> > financial incentive to do so
> 
> So, are the Alpha(s) not doing the job satisfactorily?  What can they 
> not wait for?
> 
> > Once this VMS platform closes, VMS will have exited this organisation
> > and I seriously doubt it will get a look in again
> 
> I have to wonder, it the VMS advantage is as minor for the business as 
> you seem to indicate, and if there are forces pushing for alternative 
> solutions, I'm wondering why VMS is still in use?
> 
> You've made some claims here, and in the past, that as far as I can see 
> have no details.  Without some details, how can anyone understand 
> whatever points you're trying to make?  Without some details, how can 
> anyone make any suggestions to possibly help you make a case for 
> continuing usage of VMS in your organization?  Can't solve a problem, if 
> one doesn't know what the problem is ....
> 
> > In telco land as I would imagine in most market segments, letting a
> > customer walk rather than spending money on retaining them costs
> > something like about 2.5x's as much as on-boarding a new customer
> > from scratch, that's a lot of money actually when you take into
> > account all the costs involved (including advertising etc) and often
> > they simply do not return once they have walked. Retaining the
> > existing customer base I think is very important
> 
> All true ....
> 
> > So how to retain existing Alpha and dare I say Vax customers so they
> > keep VMS in the organisation with the potential to build upon it
> > later?
> 
> While I'm not a fan of the itanic, it most definitely has been a valid 
> platform for VMS for some time now.  And, it has been less expensive 
> than the VAXs and Alphas before it.
> 
> > Offer a free x86 version on which they can run their encapsulated Vax
> > or Alpha system in perhaps? (they would of course still pay for their
> > existing Alpha licenses etc)
> 
> Do you mean something such as SimH?  It exists.  It's free.
> 
> > This would at least keep an VMS presence in the enterprise and as
> > they are willing/able, functionality could be ported over to the
> > newer x86 version, over time. Small palatable costs are easier to
> > swallow than big expensive ones when it comes to budgeting and
> > approvals
> 
> My experience in porting from VAX to Alpha, AND from Alpha to the itanic 
> has been that it's rather easy and inexpensive.  I'm not really sure 
> what you might be asking for?
> 
> > The alternative is what is most likely going to happen where I work,
> > the system will be migrated to a linux platform and the book will be
> > closed on OpenVMS period. Emulators are expensive over time, so they
> > are seen as stop-gap measures to mitigate old hardware risks
> 
> If you have applications running on VMS, the easiest and least expensive 
> path is to continue using VMS.  Any migration will be much harder and 
> more expensive.  I'm not claiming that everyone will agree with that. 
> It will depend upon their agenda.  If someone wants off VMS, or just 
> wants Linux, then they will find arguments to support that desire.  Nor 
> do the arguments need to be valid.  They just need to get management to 
> go far enough along so that turning back would be just as expensive as 
> continuing, and of course there is ego, and the unwillingness to admit 
> mistakes.
> 
> I feel quite sure that if accurate and honest estimates for each path, 
> remain on VMS or migrate to something else, remaining on VMS will be 
> much less expensive.
> 
> > A good salesperson knows that getting/keeping that 'foot in the door'
> > is vital for being able to lever future sales
> 
> Apparently the foot is already in the door, if you're already using VMS.
> 
> > How to lever those Vax and Alpha shops out there over to the new x86
> > vision rather than have them walk (probably for good) is very
> > important IMO
> 
> AS I've written, there are valid options.  If for some reason someone 
> refuses to accept them, then I doubt there is anything that could change 
> their mind(s).

Rather than do a point by point response...

Basically the organisation likes VMS from a stability point of view

The application has not been touched in over 10 years and there are issues around the source code but I am not at liberty to say what exactly or to make further references to the customer base in case someone data matches certain things and identifies more information than I want to reveal :-)

Then you have the diminishing skills of the folk who are meant to look after the application but being VMS adverse, this too is a loosing downward spiral

If the code could be lifted and put on an Itanium without the need to recompile, the business would have opted for that long ago - hence why I asked somewhere else about what exactly does a dynamic static translator perform - can it solve this issue for us going ahead?

The customer base was once the ants pants as far as the particular industry was concerned but times have changed, they represent a drag on profits now and what they were initially required to do in terms of rapid expansion is no longer required, so they are not a focus anymore hence why the application has languished for so many years

So if I have been terse with my answers, it is with reason in that I do not want the industry identified nor do I wish to disclose too much for concern that the organisation may possibly suffer customer concern if data matching can link the various parts together etc

The alpha is doing the job fine, the problem is the hardware is old, going out of support and the application is no longer supported and the source code is, err, well, in a 'special' category of it's own

Yes, I have spoken with people on the business side to let them know there at least is now a pathway forward as far as VMS is concerned but the above problems are driving their decision to get off VMS

Let's just say that a certain organisation, who makes it profit on body count based in a certain country where IT wages are cheap and quality is sometimes lacking, want a linux system because that way they can rid themselves of the expensive VMS skilled folk and look after whatever new system comes in with the same resource base they currently have, i.e. linux folk. They do not care if this new system match is not the best for their customer nor if the new system will perform any better or be less stable.

It has now got to the stage where the application folk are looking like shall we say, fools in lots of regards as their lack of VMS understanding see's things breaking and falling over with the blame being put back on 'an old system and an old application'. Thus I am fighting fires on different fronts, so to speak, including fire coming from my own camp!

I was thinking of looking at ways to extract the rdb queries by putting debug flags on but this is only part of the equation to working out the application functionality internally. The application itself was developed with corba and my skills in that area are next to none

Can anyone help provide guidance on how / who, to contact so that one can 'function rip' an application that was developed with corba / c++ I believe many years ago and work out a way to develop a new solution on VMS when the source code is, shall we say, somewhat hard to acquire?  

Solve this issue and VMS will remain in the workplace, otherwise it's pending doom is already here :-(