[Info-vax] IBM Layoffs (quite a bit off topic)

[Bill Gunshannon]

In article <mabdbn$s08$1 at speranza.aioe.org>,
	Tail Waggert <tailwagging at thedog.com> writes:
> On 2015-01-28, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot at vaxination.ca> wrote:
>> Re: need for education
>>
>> There are many reports of deacreasing software quality at Apple.
>> In recent year, they have grown R&D by something like 40 or 45% if I
>> recall correctly.
> 
> It seems to have gone to managers salaries and web apps.
> 
>> If the education system cranked out experienced programmers with proper
>> skills and knowledge of quality assurance etc,
> 
> !!!
> 
> The "education system" cannot and is certainly not supposed to crank out
> experienced programmers. 

Sit back a moment and read this.  No school can "crank out" experienced
anything.  Schools teach, experience comes when you apply what you learned.

>                           That's what trade speciality schools do. 

No, trade schools are schools. They provide training for specific tasks
and the student then takes that training, gets a job and turns it into
experience.

>                                                                     The
> education system is supposed to train people to think. 

Not sure what you mean by "the education system".  Education has many
levels and many organizations with totally different intents.  There are
some who only train people to think.  But, there isn't much money in that
so they usually have to learn something else unless they plan to live
under the bridge.  If you mean University level education systems, it
has been debated since at least 19th century just what the purpose of
University education is (and just who should be allowed to have it!)
The fact is students (and the parents paying the bills) are primarily
interested in what that education is going to do for future earnings.
And that is where, particularly in CS and CIS majors, these systems
fail.

>                                                        It fails miserably in
> that.



> 
>> perhaps Apple could have grown it programmer pool so significantly without
>> having to bear the brunt of customers complaining about bugs.
> 
> No. College grads need to be ready to learn. 

Companies don't want people who are ready to learn.  They had 4 years to
do that.  Companies want workers who can hit the ground running.  It is
up to the schools to see that the students have "learned" what the they
need to do that when they get that first job.  Most fail in this except
for very limited niches in the IT industry.

>                                              They are not going to be in the
> position of saving a company 

if the company needs saving the recent grad is a fool to even consider
working there.  Getting a job is a two way street.

>                              or being productive for a long time. 

No company i am aware of is willing to wait "a long time" before they
get some value out of an employee.  And the majority of our grads (who
we stay in touch with and track the successes or failures of) meet this
requirement in the niches they go into.

>                                                                   There is a
> cost to good developers and nobody wants to pay it. So they don't. Until
> that changes the results are going to get worse.

Ridiculous.  Our grads have no problem getting good paying jobs when they
leave here.  Most start at salaries higher than what I get after over 25
years in my current job.  It is not the quality of university education
that I see as a problem, it is the niches they choose to pretned no longer
exist and thus ignore.

> 
>> must employers assume a large part of training costs when they hire
>> employees (which means unable to grow R&D very fast)
> 
> It means they have to be serious about things like being able to identify
> and hire and retain quality talent. They have to be willing to foster
> technical and personal growth and there is no fast cheap way of doing
> that. They have to provide employees with the right level of challenges,
> pride of ownership, a career path, and training, all under constant
> professional supervision. They have to make an environment where top people
> thrive and want to work. If not they'll change jobs every 3 years.
> 
>> or should employers be in greater contact with education system to guide
>> teachers into teaching the right skills  that are needed ASAP ?
> 
> This has nothing to do with education. 

Yes, it does.  Why do you think there are so many Academic Alliances.
The only bad part is that in most cases, educatuion isn't listening to
what industry is telling them.

>                                        I'm shocked that any person could
> think it does. Do you really expect a person to be expert in anything after
> 4 years of unrelated classes 

That's part of the problem.  See comment above.

>                              and binge drinking? 

Oh, now i see.  Don't confuse how most studentsd spend their time with
how you did.   :-) 

>                                                  People need time to grow
> up. Most have no idea what they want to do with their education when they
> finish.

You don't give young people much credit.  How much time have you spent with
them?  I spend 40 hours a week.

> 
>> (consider the ephemeray scripting languages such as perl, php, python,
>> ruby on rails etc which are "soupe du jour" and change rapidly. It is
>> worth teaching those to first year uni students ?
> 
> You're missing the point badly. Colleges are not trade schools. 

Once again, see my comment above.  That particular subject has been
debated since the beginnin of the 19th century and the general concensus,
outside of some academic circles, is that they, in fact, are.  Go to
some "Open House" days at your local University.  Listen to what the
potential students and their parents ask.  Unless they are independantly
wealthy and plan to major in Philosophy their primary concern is futrure
earnings potential their education will bring.  Reality Check.

>                                                                 You're
> supposed to learn how to think in college. When you get out you're ready to
> start thinking about being good at something.

So, how is it living in the 14th century?


> 
> The good people get that way over decades, not over a few semesters.

No one expects a college grad to be an expert.  But the general expectation
in the industry is that they will have the basic skills required by the
job they are seeking.  That is one of the places where the current College
level education system is failing.  They would rather try to change the
industry rather than help it succeed.  And that is why in many places
college grads go uinemployed while "Trade School" grads are picking up
good paying jobs.  And if Colleges don't smarten up and accept reality
this trend will only grow.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999 at cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>