[Info-vax] IBM Layoffs (quite a bit off topic)

[Bill Gunshannon]

In article <mabqm1$391$1 at dont-email.me>,
	David Froble <davef at tsoft-inc.com> writes:
> JF Mezei wrote:
>> Re: need for education
>> 
>> There are many reports of deacreasing software quality at Apple.
>> In recent year, they have grown R&D by something like 40 or 45% if I
>> recall correctly.
>> 
>> If the education system cranked out experienced programmers with proper
>> skills and knowledge of quality assurance etc, perhaps Apple could have
>> grown it programmer pool so significantly without having to bear the
>> brunt of customers complaining about bugs.
>> 
>> (an example: recently released 10.10.2 may provide many fixes, but
>> apparanetly also causes language to always revert to US-Englsh and not
>> telerate other variants of english available).
>> 
>> Consider when VMS was moved to a new group of people which resulted is
>> some inexperienced guy changing the DIRECTORY command (for what reason
>> ?) before he knew that having a .DIR extension did not make a file a
>> directory, there was a bit in the header for it.
>> 
>> The VMS case is perhaps understandable because HP was winding it down
>> and had no interest in it. But for Apple, it brings up an interesting
>> issue:
>> 
>> should (and can) schools crank up people ready for work ?
> 
> No and no.
> 
> Do we really want to turn out robots with a narrow focus?  

They are doing that now.  Turning out students who think there are
only three programming languages and only one programming paradigm.

>                                                           Isn't that 
> how so many problems happen?  People without the ability to evaluate 
> things properly?

It's not ability, it's mindset.

> 
> General education about the world we live in isn't related very well to 
> jobs.  But I feel it's very important.
> 

General ed isn't supposed to be job related.  It's general ed.  The
problem is that too much of the jobe related education is not relevant
to the current state of the job.  An intersting point that just passed
between my ears ---  Why is this only a problem in our industry?

>> must employers assume a large part of training costs when they hire
>> employees (which means unable to grow R&D very fast)
> 
> Since many times what they're doing is rather specific, yes, employees 
> need specific training.

Ummmm....  No, not really.  Let's take one of my pet peeves.  COBOL.
It's been around since the earliest days of computing.  It isn't going
anywhere.  Some of the biggiest Information Systems in the world are
in COBOl.  And, contrary to popular opinion, they are not being re-
written in Java.  And yet virtually noone in the US still teaches COBOL
at the University level.  Not even in CIS programs where it, of all the
possibilities, is the premier language.  Worse still, academia is actively
telling students it is dead and doing their damndest to convinve them
to not even look at the language.  Telling them things like "learning
COBOL will ruin your career prospects" and "COBOL is a career killer".


> 
> This leads back to something I've heard too many times.  "Many people 
> know windows (not really) and so if software was windows based employers 
> would not need to do any training."  The list of problems with this kind 
> of "greedy" thinking is long and glorious.

Except that they are talking about the user level, not the IT professional
level.

> 
>> or should employers be in greater contact with education system to guide
>> teachers into teaching the right skills  that are needed ASAP ?
>> 
>> 
>> Here is a problem for universities;
>> 
>> year 1: Teacher develops new course
>> year 2: teacher pitches it to university
>> year 3: first student enrols in class.
>> year 5: first student to graduate who took that class.
>> 
>> Those skills are not of great use by the time the guy/gal is on the job
>> market, unless the education is either updated at faster rate, of the
>> skill set is more generic (such as how to test programs etc) and still
>> of value because it is less time sensitive.
> 
> Perhaps it is a course that should not have been selected?

Time line is a tad off there.  I am actually pushing for the reintroduction
of COBOL, at least as an elective.  My target for the first offering is
Fall 2015.  And, believe it or not, the deciding factor will be how well
I can sell this to the students.  I need at least six to be intereated in
the course for the registrar to let the course run.  I don;t know where
the year 5 thing came from.  Unless it is some basic freshman level course.
There is only one of them and it morphs constantly and doesn't require
"pitching to the university" for a whole year.

> 
>> (consider the ephemeray scripting languages such as perl, php, python,
>> ruby on rails etc which are "soupe du jour" and change rapidly. It is
>> worth teaching those to first year uni students ?

Python is rapidly moving into this position which is currently held by
that "language du jour" Java.  The other choices above are all crap
and have never been considered as starter languages at any real school
I am familiar with.  Since I have been here the progression was: 
       Pascal -> Ada -> Java
Tell me that (with the exception of Pascal which was designed to teach
begining students programming) isn't "language du jour".

> 
> Just teach VAX Basic, what else could ever be needed?  :-)

A language thay they might actually expect to ever see again.

> 
> When I was young, lo these many years ago, what a college degree told a 
> potential employer was that "here is someone capable of learning".  

Really?  Too bad that wasn't what they were looking for.  I remember
when a college degree meant you actually had relevant teaching in your
chosen profession.  Not theory that is totally inapplicable to the job
at hand.  Some how I don't think the entry in your resume that your Senior
Project was writting a Game Server for Go in PHP is going to carry much
weight when you interview at Morgan Stanley.

>                                                                     Sort 
> of similar to "Bear" Bryant's claim that "luck follows speed".

Bear Bryant wasn't in the IT industry.  As a matter of fact, he never worked
at any job that relevant to the real world.  And before you think I just don't
like him, let me add one more thing...   Roll Tide!!!!

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999 at cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>