[Info-vax] Could XRDP be the next graphical interface for VMS?

[Dirk Munk]

Stephen Hoffman wrote:
> On 2015-03-21 14:59:18 +0000, Dirk Munk said:
>
> TL;DR: It'd be nice to have, but as an add-on and not as the sole path
> into an OpenVMS graphical display environment.  Whether RDP solves some
> particular problem here does depends on what problem you think RDP might
> address — and I don't yet understand which problem(s) you are seeking to
> address with RDP.
>
>> Recently there was some discussion about X-Windows, Motif etc. in this
>> group.
>
> There was a discussion of the rather limited graphics driver support and
> the need to deal with graphics hardware — graphics hardware which tends
> to have the product shelf life of a fruit-fly, and where new device
> generations require reworked or wholly new device drivers, and which is
> work that can require potentially-restricted access to detailed device
> interface specifications if and as those are available — and also
> discussion around whether or not certain applications and certain
> applications did or did not require graphical displays — some folks here
> will emphatically never require a graphics display associated with
> OpenVMS — and there was the usual debate and disagreement over exactly
> what a desktop environment is, and what a desktop environment might
> provide folks.  The opinions and requirements and potential usages of
> what various participants refer to as a "desktop" do of course vary very
> widely, and — for clarity — the chances of OpenVMS ever hosting what
> most folks would consider useful home or office applications approaches
> zero.
>
>> I'm not an expert on these matters,
>
> Some of these discussions can require substantial effort to explain the
> associated technical details to an inexperienced or inexpert user, which
> can require a willingness to gather and present the associated
> background information and lints to associated resources and
> discussions.  Time and effort and research.   Put another way, it can be
> much easier to ignore some of these discussions.  The astute reader will
> note that more than various folks familiar with X and RDP technologies
> can and do ignore some of these threads, of course.
>
>> but it doesn't stop me thinking about good solutions for these problems.
>
> Which particular problems would you be proposing "good solutions" for,
> in this case?   Whether inexperienced or expert, some background
> information and a summary can help readers better understand the
> suggestion, or the proposal, or — if you were asking one — the question.

Like I explained before, if you can make these kind of graphical 
connections from a PC without the need for extra software packages, and 
having to install and pay for them, that in itself would be beneficial. 
So I wanted to know if this would also be a viable solution from a 
technical point of view, but it clearly is not.

>
> For this RDP discussion, this "good solution" is a reasonable approach
> in support of those Windows clients or other systems that cannot or do
> not have an X Windows server package installed, and that require viewing
> the OpenVMS graphical display from the physical or virtual frame
> buffer.  That's probably not a very big market, right now.
>
> RDP can certainly be handy for some specific application cases and I do
> use it for various operations, but I wouldn't presume providing a
> somewhat better OpenVMS graphics experience for Windows users would be
> at the top of the work list over at VSI — there isn't all that much
> graphical application software for OpenVMS, and what is available can —
> in the absence of RDP — be displayed remotely via X.   Unlike the
> experience and the tools that most Windows or OS X users are presented,
> OpenVMS is still centrally managed from the command line.
>
> OpenVMS on Integrity servers can also have RDP vKVM support via the
> management processor iLO, which means this solution is already available
> for those users — no RDP server needed.  There are also various vendors
> which offer hardware network KVMs
> <http://www.blackbox.com/Store/Results.aspx/KVM/n-4294964384/p-0> — no
> software required.  Not the cheapest way of doing this, but functional
> for those that really need it.
>
> RDP is a reasonable solution that Microsoft uses, and Microsoft uses RDP
> because the Microsoft GUI does not have remote-display capabilities.  OS
> X has similar GUI display limitations, as do some other windowing
> systems.  The old VWS/UIS system was local, as well. Both Windows and OS
> X have functional, free, add-on X Window servers.
>
> Beyond the effects of the network connection and ignoring the lack of a
> viable RDP server for OpenVMS servers lacking vKVM support, local
> experience finds RDP rather slow when working with virtual frame
> buffers.  But I digress.
>
> Note that Windows and OS X still have graphics driver support, and
> extensive application frameworks for accessing and managing the display.
>
> Running DECterm via X or via RDP is reminiscent of hunting fleas with
> anvils.  It works, but...
>
>> But what is your opinion, could XRDP or a similar OpenVMS package be
>> the way for a new graphical interface?
>
> RDP is a software-implemented network-remote KVM.   RDP is useful for
> some cases and a common protocol for an RDP client box that needs to
> access a remote RDP server box, but it is not what most folks would
> consider a "new graphical interface".   RDP is nothing of the sort. It's
> far too primitive to be considered a graphical interface.

I agree. My first impression was that it was a kind of X-Windows 
variant. I had no idea it would be this primitive. With an X-Windows 
server you can run applications on several clients (in X-Windowa 
terminology), and that will be impossible with RDP I guess.

> Try doing
> some X programming on OpenVMS or Unix (whether Motif or CDE or Wayland
> or otherwise), or Xcode and the now-integrated Interface Builder on OS
> X, or the Visual tools over on Windows, or GTK+, or whatever.  These
> tools can control and manage displays, and applications can use these
> tools for displays.  RDP?  Not so much.  If VSI wants to go entirely
> virtual, then they probably would use RDP — but I suspect there'll be
> customers that want a local graphics display of some ilk, which will
> require a graphics device driver.
>
> Read up on X and Motif and CDE and Wayland and particularly watch the
> Wayland video referenced at <http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/1680> as a
> starting point, and read up on RDP
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remote_Desktop_Protocol>.
>