[Info-vax] BASIC compiler in the hobbyist distribution

[David Froble]

seasoned_geek wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 4:57:39 PM UTC-5, Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
>>>>> seasoned_geek wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The more OpenSource is ported to OpenVMS the fewer customers VMS
>>>>>> (open or otherwise) will have. This is a historical fact most
>>>>>> people seem to choose to ignore.
>> They are two uncorrelated facts.
>>
>> One can also state that without some of the later opensource,
>> VMS would have even *less* customers then today.
>>
>> You just make up some history from some randomly picked
>> facts that happens to match your view. You are probably
>> only fooling yourself, noone else shares those views.
>>
> 
> They aren't views, they are history, I lived it. Early days with Cognos PowerHouse when they abandoned the HP3000 (just before HP did) and moved to VAX it was an amazing product with phenom support. Once the C compiler became "Unix compatible" they ported to Unix/Linux/variants and forced VAX users to live with a "common source" version relying on what we now would call OpenSource libraries which slashed and burned the bulk of the VMS functionality. This forced multiple VARs with ERP and warehouse management systems written mostly in Cognos PowerHouse to also slash and burn towards Unix/Linux/variant land. One of the few names I remember from that group, probably because I was on a project for DEC installing it at a large client, was the Calidus WMS system, called 'Miracle' back then. I see they have dropped the name now and just call it Calidus. I do remember that Calidus was not the only VAR/customizable canned software vendor of its day, it is just the only name I remem
ber.
> 
> The slash and burn of VMS functionality in favor of "common codebase" also forced a bunch of other customers with completely custom applications written in PowerHouse to "quickly" migrate from the platform. One rather large pharmacy operation which kept merging/acquiring until finally the last merger decided to drop its name had their core system in PowerHouse on VMS running an untold number of sites. It started out as COBOL on VMS, then migrated slowly to PowerHouse. Yes, I worked on it, both the COBOL and the PowerHouse versions and the migration to PowerHouse. No, I'm not going to utter the name here.
> 
> A similar situation happened with the Progress 4GL product. I _believe_ it actually started on VMS. Quick search could not find anything to confirm or deny that. First encountered it on VAX 11/750. Why my believe is so strong it started on VMS was the flipchart you had to keep by the keyboard. Each section of their development environment remapped "the EDT keypad" as most programmers I know of called it then. It came with this little stand up flip chart you flipped to whatever part you were in, screen designer, dictionary, etc., so you could tell what the keypad keys did.
> 
> Sadly I do not remember which customizable package software vendors were developed with Progress 4gl on VMS. Did not work with them directly. I remember there were some, but they might have only been regional, not international like Calidus.
> 
> True, these two were not directly due to OpenSource as it is defined now. They were mostly fallout from the stupid decision to become the first POSIX compliant/certified/whatever operating system and the addition of various libraries at the behest of application providers and the pursuit of that "Open" moniker.
> 
> Some of you might find it hilarious that the POSIX page on Wikipedia lists OpenVMS as "compliant via optional package". 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POSIX
> 
> I haven't paid attention to the POSIX thing, but as I remember the article from DEC Professional magazine it wasn't optional, but that doesn't matter. Perhaps it really is something stand alone now. Maybe we really do install different C compilers and different libraries?
> 
> 
> I will let those who were more directly involved the major applications ports and what particular portion of OpenSource helped them leave. The Ingres story and the resulting PostgreSQL story is particularly sad since I worked at a VAR which sold that. Not going into it. Don't know if I even could. Just keep in mind that RTI became Ingres Corporation to serve the DEC/VAX market and now PostgreSQL won't even compile on VMS.
> 
> http://www.postgresql.org/message-id/3.0.5.32.20000817180548.0081c150@pop.shentel.net
> 
>>> The more you add things from wanna-be OS's which run on a joke
>>> of a CPU, the more they will continue to leave. Well, not so much "more"
>>> because way more than half are gone.
>>>
>> Most leaves becuse things aren't there.
>>
>> The way you express our opinions places your
>> credibility way down the scale.
> 
> They don't leave because things are missing. I have heard that falsehood echoed many times but it is smoke. When one reaches through the smoke to grasp what was supposedly missing the hand comes back empty because there was nothing.
> 
> The simple truth is upper management almost everywhere has become a knock-off product from a Wal-mart shelf. In the 70s and 80s upper management cared about the quality of their product and their company (okay, GM and the other Detroit auto makers were notable exceptions during the 80s). Management understood absolutely nothing about computers. All they knew was that these things were the heavy artillery in this war known as commerce and you had to have the best to come out on top. This was the trailing edge of a generation where you had to start out in the mail room if you wanted to become part of upper management. You had to actually learn the business before you got a chance to manage anything.
> 
> Today we have a bunch of rinky-dink schools churning out MBA degrees. If the textbook doesn't tell them when to take a dump and wipe their butt, it doesn't happen. When they roll up their sleeves in a meeting it is to view the cheat sheet of buzzwords scribbled on each arm. They check email on a $300 laptop and believe that is all which should be required to run an entire company.
> 
> Rather than learning the business first, they move straight into management. They have no idea what the company really does, just what was on the dot pointed brochure found in the lobby. They have no concept of original thinking or business differentiation. This crew of smiling hair cuts wants to thump in some big package they paid the Gartner Group to choose for them (who was most likely paid by the vendor to make said choice), turn a knob and cash a $300 million bonus check without ever having done a thing.
> 
> IBM actually tried to educate these sorry excuses. They ran television ads (at least in America) asking:
> 
> "if you run the same software as everyone else, where is your business advantage?"
> 
> Sadly, the target audience of the commercial didn't understand the concept of the question let alone that it was something for them to deal with.
> 
> 

Now we're getting somewhere.  The downfall of Western civilization, ... 
the Harvard Business School.

Where is a good terrorist when you need something done away with ????