[Info-vax] Where to locate software

[Kerry Main]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Info-vax [mailto:info-vax-bounces at info-vax.com] On Behalf Of
> Stephen Hoffman via Info-vax
> Sent: 09-Jun-16 8:43 AM
> To: info-vax at info-vax.com
> Cc: Stephen Hoffman <seaohveh at hoffmanlabs.invalid>
> Subject: Re: [New Info-vax] Where to locate software
> 
> On 2016-06-08 23:18:47 +0000, Paul Richards said:
> 
> > I'm running OpenVMS 8.4 on FreeAXP and am a comparative newbie.
> So, a
> > noob question: I am planning to install some of the HP Open-source
> > software and Freeware.
> >
> > For those applications which don't automatically install where should I
> > locate them such that I can run them from any directory?
> 
> Welcome!
> 
> I'm one of the resident curmudgeons, and deal with more than few
> packages and tools, and have worked with more than a few open source
> packages on OpenVMS.  And I use a mix of operating systems beyond
> OpenVMS and Windows.
> 
> This is an excellent question!   That's something most folks arriving
> from competently-designed systems might wonder, too.
> 
> Alas...
> 
> That you even have to ask this question points to a hole in the
> available documentation and resources.
> 
> Worse, OpenVMS itself has no idea how to do this and provides
> absolutely no guidance, and neither HPE nor VSI has stated any plans
> around draining this particular swamp.   VSI has come the closest here,
> with some very general discussions about maybe adding some support
> for
> containers in some future release.
> 
> In short...  Have at.  It's a free-for-all.
> 

As long as one wants to ignore available documentation and/or best
practices and/or constructive advice from those familiar with the system 
platform, then you are correct.

Course, this applies to any platform one is just becoming acquainted with.

Performance, capacity planning, disk space availability, security, available 
hardware, changing technologies (e.g. flash SSD's), HA requirements, App
specific restrictions and pre-existing practices are all areas that need to be 
considered when looking at where to locate new workloads on a system 
platform. In a VM, its less of an issue as there are only a few options.

Hence, there is no one right solution to install applications on any OS 
platform. The best app's are those that recognize this and provide the 
SysAdmin with the flexibility to make their own decisions that are best 
for their local environment.

Course, this applies to all OS platforms as well. 

Can this be improved on OpenVMS?

Absolutely, especially with changing technologies making decisions made 
In the past a bit of a non-issue. 

As an example - cheap 500GB SSD's make the old argument of worrying 
about system disk space less of an issue.

However, for those who have managed large Windows or Linux environments, 
the same is true.

> Stick it everywhere, stick it anywhere, however you want, in the system
> directories or in private directories, it's completely and utterly up
> to the administrator and to the folks that created the installation
> kits — even the kits and kitting software lacks any a particular
> recommended organization for the installed software — which means
> that
> you'll have a zillion opinions and absolutely no consistency, even with
> the vendor products.  Upgrades can be well handled and clear, or they
> can be a complete train-wreck.   There's no standard way to remove
> more
> than a little of the installed software, no auditing of what's
> installed, and removing installed software — PCSI does better than most
> here — is completely manually implemented by whoever created the kit
> or
> the install.   If they even provide a way to remove the software.
> There's a little modular programming documentation that recommends
> using prefixes on file names and logical names and such — and facility
> prefixes registered with HPE and VSI, but I'm not sure there's any way
> to even get those registered these days — but OpenVMS itself
> *routinely* violates that recommendation, as do more than a few of the
> open source and commercial packages.
> 
> TL;DR: Vendor app design recommendations?  Doesn't exist.  Application
> bundles or packages?  Doesn't exist.  App stacking or containers or
> such?  Doesn't exist.  Sandboxes or jails or BSD pledge() or other
> forms of application security and isolation?  Doesn't exist.
> Recommendations for embedded libraries or frameworks?  Doesn't
> exist.
> 

Re: App stacking doesn’t exist on OpenVMS?

Better not tell all those OpenVMS Customers out there who have been 
running multiple applications on the same OS and/or same cluster for 
decades. I am sure they will be shocked to find this out.

For those with OpenVMS clusters, common system disks (dual for rolling
Upgrades) greatly simplify the App stacking process by providing common 
Boot, startup and config files. Ask a Windows person how they do this on 
a Windows cluster .. hint - they don't.

:-)

> Integrating open source packages?  Always fun.   They all work
> differently.    Alas.   The (many) other replies here in the
> comp.os.vms newsgroup will have some examples of the various user
> recommendations.
> 

Like all of the other OS platforms, the install process for OpenVMS could
definitely use improvement - no one would likely say this is not the case.

Again - changing technologies are going to change the way that future 
Install decisions are made. As an example - given system disk space is not 
the same concern as it used to be, perhaps a VMS install should come as
an image (LD container?) with most of the core Apps already installed and 
the "install" process is simply a "Prod Remove" process i.e. just remove 
those you do not need, then update the license file and startup /config
files ..

Another LD container could come with most of the common 3rd party
packages pre-installed. Same process.

Regards,

Kerry Main
Kerry dot main at starkgaming dot com