[Info-vax] Updated HPE/VSI OpenVMS V8.4-2L1 Marketing Brochures

[Stephen Hoffman]

On 2016-10-01 13:25:57 +0000, David Froble said:

> IanD wrote:
>> On Saturday, October 1, 2016 at 8:41:42 PM UTC+10, clairg... at gmail.com wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> <snip>
>> 
>>> We announced at Boot Camp this week that we will doing an 8.4-2L1 
>>> release for Alpha. We will get more information out as soon as we have 
>>> completed the detailed planning.
>> 
>> That's amazing and quite a feat actually!
> 
> It will allow easier movement to x86.

It'll allow VSI to issue compatibility kits.   How they keep folks from 
just staying on V8.4-2L1 is another discussion.
> 
>> I was also meaning having a service where people can call / engage and 
>> get an assessment of what is needed to move people forward and get some 
>> help in doing so. The brilliant minds at VSI would be able to give 
>> people insights into how they can move their platforms forward (a lot 
>> would have no idea of even where to start)
> 
> Usually the installation manual.

Having done these discussions with more than a few sites, it's a whole 
lot more than reading the installation manual.   That's the start, then 
there's using the new versions effectively, troubleshooting problems, 
rolling in hardware to replace disks that are failing, upgrading 
databases for the newer versions, occasionally rebuilding bits and 
pieces, and then the longer-term goal here and larger part of the 
effort involved with getting off of Alpha.   We're not in the same 
world OpenVMS once was, and more than a few sites don't have 
OpenVMS-experienced IT staff available.

>> I would say a lot of places out there are running in linux / windows 
>> shops with a side system of OpenVMS and the people looking after VMS 
>> have little or not enough experience to drag the platform forward
> 
> Oh, you mean they are unable to read?  Or perhaps "inclination" is a 
> better term than "experience"?

Ayup.   Pick your phrasing...   Little inclination, insufficient 
experience, lacking the time and money required, better things to do, 
easier to do the work on another platform, etc...

>> ...I advocate open source because I happen to think it's another way to 
>> remove the stumbling blocks that OpenVMS is already facing and it 
>> doesn't need more stumbling blocks, it needs to make itself as 
>> attractive as possible....
> 
> You keep harping on "open source".  My opinion is that it is a 
> non-issue.  It would not make any difference.  You think those 
> "students" are driving *ix development?  I suggest that it is the 
> "PAID" employees at RedHat, IBM, and such that are doing so.  You know, 
> just like the paid employees at VSI.

There are a lot more folks — a lot more — getting paid to work on Linux, too.

As for the open source, that is the core of most platforms and it means 
folks don't need to learn new platforms and new tools.   WASD is great, 
but the two most common web services platforms around are nginx and 
Apache.

> Nobody coming out of college is ready to do any job.  They don't have 
> the real world experience.  Some may not like that idea, but it's been 
> my reality for many years.  What education teaches one is "how to 
> learn", which can then be applied when exposed to real world problems.  
> If they are any good, learning to work with VMS will be just as easy 
> (or more so) as any other environment.

True.  But then I find OpenVMS much more difficult to configure, manage 
and use.   This given I know well how to do all of those things and how 
to troubleshoot the issues that arise.   This when compared with these 
same tasks on some of the other available platforms and tools.

> Now, if some of them think they "know it all" and are going to remake 
> the world to their image of how things should be, you keep them, I got 
> no use for snot nosed kids who think they know more than those who have 
> been doing a job for years.  Too much effort to beat some sense into 
> them.

I've learned that various of the more experienced and "know it all" 
folks can be a serious problem too, as they sometimes can't or don't or 
won't invest the time and effort to keep up with what's possible and 
with what's already available.    Sometimes the old ways are the best 
ways.   Sometimes the old ways are Windows XP, or using knowledge and 
experience gleaned from RH6 and which is no longer applicable, and with 
all the associated problems the old ways can engender.    In other 
cases, repeating the old ways are a waste of time and effort.   
Sometimes the more experienced folks can learn a whole lot from the 
kids, if folks are willing to listen to them.  Then there's the 
enthusiasm, something that's been sorely lacking in more than a OpenVMS 
shops.  But I digress....

> I'll just ask, other than the concept that there is something special 
> about open source, just what real world benefits can you imagine there 
> might be?

Asking a question is a very good start to learning.   Apache and nginx 
are available, common and with active development, known configuration 
syntax and other benefits.   As good as WASD is and as well-integrated 
as it is, it's yet another thing that folks would have to learn, if 
WASD were to be the web server integrated into OpenVMS.   Postfix and 
other common packages are similarly known.   ISC BIND is already part 
of OpenVMS, albeit not particularly integrated and a very old version.  
   And yes, there are platforms that put very effective GUIs in front 
of Apache, Postfix, BIND and other tools.

Everybody has to train new staff to local practices, of course.   If 
there aren't younger folks coming into OpenVMS, then existing 
organizations are going to have to train their new staff in the 
operating system and tools.



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