[Info-vax] Development Tooling

[Dave Froble]

On 12/16/2018 11:22 AM, Stephen Hoffman wrote:
> On 2018-12-15 09:45:26 +0000, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply said:
>
>> ...Many people do...✂️...namely people who write their own
>> applications.  They need an OS and  a compiler, that's it...
>
> That's true, as far as it goes.  Developers can work with an operating
> system and just a compiler.  Though developers are a fickle lot.

Well, yes, we are.

> With the expectations of frameworks and tool chains, and around one or
> more IDEs and increasingly on the scale of Xcode or JetBrains or VS
> capabilities, and with expectations around app instrumentation and build
> tools and deployment tools, and around security-related frameworks and
> encryption, and a variety of other details well beyond the compilers,
> these requirements developers increasing have can make OpenVMS a
> difficult sale.

I'm going to propose some things that apparently escape your claims and 
logic.

Do you really want a serious developer to be dependent on tools that 
remove the need of some of the skills to be a serious developer?

Ok, typing errors I'll give you.  Probably the largest of the problems 
I've encountered.

Consider, if the developer must be precise enough to do without some of 
the aids, perhaps a better job can be done.  Complacency can lead to 
errors as much, maybe more, than the lack of aids.

Now some may just dismiss this as garbage coming from "elitist Dave", 
and to an extent they might be correct.  Or maybe not.

As far as I know, some of the tools appear to favor certain languages. 
You might consider that as "good advice".  For me, it makes them a 
non-issue.

> This among the subset of folks that are purchasing new servers for new
> bespoke deployments.

I'll still claim VMS has a rather robust development environment.  Hey, 
everyone is entitled to an opinion, and that's mine.

> And these folks often purchase new based on what servers they already have.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

> And that's before any consideration of the work that VSI has underway to
> bring various of the compilers forward to something approaching
> compliance with current standards.

Some past actions are acknowledged, and, as you say, are now being 
addressed.

> Developer expectations have moved on from what OpenVMS offers.  The
> classic OpenVMS edit-compile-link-debug development cycle isn't all that
> popular, these days.

Depends on who you ask, right?

> LSEDIT was a good IDE choice in the 1990s, but it's utterly
> uncompetitive in recent years.

Don't know, as I've never used it.  If it's so bad now, perhaps I should 
try it out?

:-)

> I find that running the entirety of the edit-compile-link-debug loop
> entirely within the same editor session preferable.  I can change code
> or examine variables or set breakpoints, and where my syntax errors are
> shown as I'm entering the source code, and where editor completion is
> predictive approaching prescient.  Having to switch between tooling—even
> with COMPILE/REVIEW within LSEDIT—is more work, for weaker results, and
> it's slower.
>
> For existing OpenVMS users and organizations, OpenVMS will continue to
> be interesting and useful.

Very useful.

> But what OpenVMS requires and what it presently offers is not and will
> not soon be interesting to other folks.  VSI is now working to address
> the immediate needs of the installed base, and—as the production x86-64
> release becomes available and the core developing tooling stabilize
> closer to what's considered current—VSI will shift toward addressing
> more of the omissions and limitations, and to enable their partners to
> provide development tooling that VSI does not.
>
> There are pricing and licensing considerations lurking here, too.  At
> least basic development tooling is free on most current, competitive
> operating system platforms, and sometimes much more advanced development
> tooling.
>
>
>


-- 
David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef at tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA  15486