[Info-vax] Vax Station 4000 VLC

[Dave Froble]

On 12/30/2018 7:06 AM, Hans Bachner wrote:
> Richard Maher schrieb am 29.12.2018 um 04:04:
>> On 27/12/2018 7:18 pm, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
>>> Den 2018-12-27 kl. 10:25, skrev Hans Bachner:
>>>> Jan-Erik Söderholm schrieb am 25.12.2018 um 10:38:
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>
>>>>> As have been said many times, a web *browser* is wasted money on VMS.
>>>>> No sane person uses VMS as their "office desktop" today. [...]
>>>>
>>>> I'm certainly not asking for a full desktop environment on OpenVMS,
>>>> but a reasonable/usable browser should be rather high on the list.
>>>> Given the fact that most support stuff (patches, kits, ...) is
>>>> accessible through a browser (only, in many cases), there should be a
>>>> way to directly download this stuff to a VMS box and not go through
>>>> intermediate systems with different OSs.
>>>>
>>>
>>> To fetch some pacthes or new OS kits a few times a year, I do not see
>>> the big win here. And not the ROI from browser development/porting.
>>>
>>> For manual kit/patch fetches, your normal Windows desktop works
>>> perfectly OK.
>>>
>>> Automated patch fetches will not be based on a web browser anyway.
>>>
>>> No, save those efforts for things that actually matters.
>>>
>>> Jan-Erik.
>>>
>>>> Well, VSI offers their kits/ECOs on an SFTP server which changes
>>>> requirements a bit. But the old HP(E) interface into the patch
>>>> website was quite good, where you could look at details of individual
>>>> ECO kits and add them to your download list. I don't know how it
>>>> looks today as partners (DSPP/AllianceONE) have been locked out for
>>>> quite a while now.
>>>>
>>>>> And regarding a "GUI for VMS" in general, it is today a web server (on
>>>>> VMS) and browsers (on some common office desktop platform).
>>>>
>>>> This is correct, and, while much management is still done on the
>>>> command line and through scripting, more browser based tools at least
>>>> for parts which are used only occasionally would be very helpful.
>>>>
>>>> Hans.
>>>
>>
>> Give up Jan Erik. These people still want to use All-in-1 and
>> VAXDocument :-(
>
> I last used ALL-IN-1 around 1997 (or whenever DEC switched to an
> Exchange based mail service). Some of my colleagues then used it longer
> for other business applications integrated into ALL-IN-1. If I remember
> correctly, there also was a Windows client available. ALL-IN-1 wasn't
> that bad as an application integration platform, though it was used as a
> mail system my many/most users.
>
> VAX Document shared the fate of many OpenVMS products. Ahead of its
> time, or at least competitive in the beginning, and then losing ground
> over time. It was the only tool I know of where documents could be
> exchanged and edited between VMS and Windows (maybe even the Pro
> 350/380, not sure about that one).
>
> I still have customers who maintain documentation of decades old
> applications (still serving the intended purpose very well) with VAX
> Document. It's just too much effort to convert everything to a current
> documentation tool. But I hear that VSI is offering conversion as a
> service as they need to do it for tons of VMS documentation anyway.
>
> In anticipation of some replies to this posting - no, I certainly would
> not recommend to create documentation for a brand new project with VAX
> Document.
>
> Hans.

We're talking about what happened in the past, since that is when some 
decisions were made that basically killed off some of DEC's applications.

Face it, in the past, VMS was not cheap, compared to the then new PCs 
hitting the market.  So, let me tell a story from my personal experience.

I have about 30 acres here at the farm/home/airport.  A bit of work to 
cut all the grass in the late spring.  Got a small Kubota with a five 
foot cut mower deck.  In May, by the time you finish cutting grass, it's 
time to start over.  No let-up.

Several years ago I made a call to the local Toro dealer.  They have 
some very nice machines, with 12 foot wide or more capabiliity.  Now, 
that would be very nice to have, and definitely better than my 5 foot 
capability.

Talked to them about a machine with 12 foot cut, heated and air 
conditioned cab, with a snow blower attachment for winter.  Sweet!  The 
salesman was ready to bring one out for a demonstration.  But before 
letting him do that, I asked about pricing.  It started out at $75K, and 
went up from there.  All my hopes smashed, I told the salesman there was 
no use doing the demo, as I just could not justify nor afford that price.

Back to VMS.  It wasn't cheap, nor was the software.  It didn't matter 
whether the DEC application was much better than what was on the PCs. 
Many just could not justify the much higher price.  And so the PC 
software sold, and became better, and surpassed the DEC application. 
Some of this might be reality, and some could be perception.  Doesn't 
matter which, people selected the PC application.

Yeah, VMS was a very good product, and DEC had some good applications, 
but when people had a Kubota budget, the Toro was deemed too expensive. 
  And that's why Linux is so popular, the perceived cost.  Not 
necessarily the actual cost.  And that's the environment in which VSI 
must succeed, or fail.  Do they depend upon a few customers who will pay 
the big bucks, or, do they attempt to appeal to volume usage?  Can be a 
tough question.

What I need is the Toro at the Kubota price ....

-- 
David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef at tsoft-inc.com
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