[Info-vax] Internationalization

[Bill Gunshannon]

On 12/31/18 8:26 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 12/31/2018 1:04 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> On 12/31/18 11:36 AM, Dave Froble wrote:
>>> On 12/31/2018 7:00 AM, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
>>>> Well, the world does not stand still. We have a long list of 
>>>> development
>>>> projects on our Alpha environment. Both updates to the current apps but
>>>> also new applications.
>>>>
>>>> And I do not think that the Alpha offer from VSI was put together only
>>>> for us, so there must be a conciderable number of similar sites.
>>>
>>> I think that there may be more sites running old Alphas than anything 
>>> else.  For sure there were enough for VSI to decide they needed an 
>>> Alpha release of their own.  As "their own" HP is out of the picture.
>>>
>>> I'm rather sure that the first build of "their own" would be the most 
>>> labor intensive.  While additional releases will have some cost to 
>>> VSI, most likely not near as much, and so perhaps there will be 
>>> further Alpha releases.
>>
>> Software availability is only one term of the equation.  The one
>> easily fixed.  The hardware is not going to be around for much
>> longer.
> 
> Physical hardware becomes old and fragile.
> 
> But emulators does not age the same way.
> 
> So "Alpha's" may be around for decades to come.
> 
> Similar to the market for VAX emulators.
> 
>>> If there is a significant number of sites using Alpha VMS, who are 
>>> willing to pay for support, that's chunk of change that VSI needs to 
>>> consider and go after.
>>>
>>> You mentioned perhaps never going off Alpha.  Can you suggest reasons 
>>> for that?  DEC made some very reliable stuff, but, in time the costs 
>>> and efforts will increase.  I guess my question is, do reasons for 
>>> not using x86 when it's available exist?
>>
>> A better question would be do (valid) reasons for staying
>> on Alpha once a viable alternative is there exist.
> 
> The typical reasons for staying on old platform are:
> 1) some software dependency is not available on the new platform

A valid concern.  But one that needs to be addressed before it
becomes a potential disaster.

> 2) some special hardware is not available on the new platform

Wouldn't that preclude the use of an emulator?  But, same as
above.

> 3) migration cost too high

Now high does it have to be to risk being shot out of the water
by an unrepairable system failure?

> 
> #1 will come in effect if some vendors supporting VMS Alpha
> will not support VMS x86-64. I believe both PL/I and Ada
> may end up in that category.

Then it becomes time to look at moving off VMS.  Or changing
language before it becomes a critical problem.

> 
> #2 will probably be rare. I don't think there were ever as much
> custom hardware for Alpha as for VAX. And in case of #2 then
> emulators are not an option either.

Guess it depends on the Alpha.  The Alpha I had (a gift to the
school from Compaq) that ran VMS had a PCI bus so any hardware
that fit in there would fit in a x86 box as well.  Then it
is just a software problem.  But, as you said, not as likely
with the Alpha as it was with the VAX.

> 
> #3 will depend on VSI's approach. Just rebuild and it will run
> then #3 is not an issue. If breaking too much then it is
> another story.

If you can't migrate to X86-64 VMS it is probably time to
evaluate your whole operation.  Staying in the 20th century
is unlikely to be a wise decision.  Unless all the important
people plan to retire soon and don't really care about the
long term future of the company.

> 
> My guess is that the vast majority of remaining
> Alpha users will migrate.
> 
> I just suspect that the migration will be very slow.
> 
> Those that migrate fast already have migrated to I64.

Possibly, but I suspect many saw the I64 as a dead end
from the start and may have opted to not waste the money
migrating knowing if they did another migration would be
in their not too distant future. Either to the replacement
for I64 which we now see, or away from VMS.

Like it or  not, the choices are going to be rather simple.
Migrate to X86-64 VMS or migrate away from VMS or plan
for a demise in the not too distant future.

As I mentioned in a previous post, it would be very interesting
to learn why VMS was chosen for a lot of the systems that are
still on it.  VMS was never the only choice.  If it was chosen
for a reason is that reason still valid today?


bill