[Info-vax] Autogen

[Stephen Hoffman]

On 2018-02-12 20:05:41 +0000, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply said:

> In article <p5sq7l$42j$1 at dont-email.me>, Stephen Hoffman
> <seaohveh at hoffmanlabs.invalid> writes:
> 
>> Correction: This has always been a dodgy area in OpenVMS.  The ADD_ and 
>> MIN_ and MAX_ and the rest haven't helped things, the app-specific 
>> settings database isn't documented for use and (outside that database)  
>> there's no reasonable way to reserve some quota short of tossing it at 
>> the user and an editor, and which is hardly suitable for reproducible 
>> and automatable and scaleable deployments.  Some of the patches and 
>> some of the OpenVMS updates have been adding cruft to the file for 
>> years, clustering is absurdly complex to configure and manage, etc.    
>> AUTOGEN is a somewhat-familiar and baroque and arcane artifact of an  
>> earlier and more heavily-staffed era.
> 
> I definitely see where you are coming from, and actually enjoy iPad  updates.
> 
> On the other hand, I have a ragamuffin cluster of various bits and  
> pieces built originally between 1995 and 2003 or so (and before that 
> had a couple of VAXes in a mixed-architecture cluster going back to the 
> late  1980s).  I have a shared-everything cluster, am using HBVS, etc.  
> And it  just works and is essentially maintenance-free.

On the other hand.... what?  You've spent years hacking around in 
various spots of that cluster, had massive and repeated problems with 
getting basic functions working not the least of which has been 
shadowing, and you've repeatedly avoided maintaining and upgrading to 
current versions of software due to various local issues.     You've 
made repeated passes at getting shadowing to work over the years, and 
RAID is a pretty basic server function all things considered.

So... yeah, many of us have worked with and have watched you and many 
other folks here and elsewhere — and many of us have dealt with our own 
systems — sorting through and puzzling with the complexity, with the 
arcane commands and configuration requirements, with the occasional 
missing or misplaced files or errant setup commands, missing or delayed 
security patches, SSL updates because SSL always ages out, with bespoke 
deployments and automation requirements at best, with integrating fully 
with Active Directory or Open Directory, and the rest....

The present-day OpenVMS management — of which AUTOGEN is a very small 
part — is not going to be a future that sells very well.  Not to new 
folks and not necessarily even to existing folks that are doing 
substantial upgrades to their environments.  Not to existing folks that 
have looked around at other platforms and tools, for that matter.

Folks have been migrating away from OpenVMS for decades.  Even with 
VSI, there are folks that are still migrating away from OpenVMS.  Doing 
the same thing and expecting different results?

You've been exceptionally patient with getting that configuration where 
it is, too.   Which is also part of why you and many others are loathe 
to reinstall OpenVMS, and that's another issue with OpenVMS.  
Re-installations are hard, and there's no good way to preserve settings 
and environments.

Servers certainly aren't in the same market as iOS here, but iOS is a 
whole lot closer to the direction that folks can and will be expecting 
servers to head.  OpenVMS isn't.  And you're only using a fraction of 
how iOS deployments can be automated and scaled and integrated, BTW.    
But servers don't get a pass on how fast any relevant security patches 
have to be installed.  And we're only headed toward more frequent 
security patches.

The goal is to make it easier to get to a stable configuration, and to 
a configuration that manages itself.  That upgrades itself or easily 
migrates itself.   Preferably with minimal requirements on the folks 
administering the server.  That is and remains patched to current, and 
secured.   OpenVMS isn't there yet.

VSI has a huge amount of work ahead of them, beyond getting to stable 
and increasing revenues and that's no small effort.  Overhauling or 
replacing AUTOGEN is a very small part of that, and undoubtedly very 
far down the list.


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