[Info-vax] Programming languages on VMS

[Jan-Erik Soderholm]

Den 2018-01-25 kl. 01:38, skrev Bill Gunshannon:
> On 01/24/2018 05:39 PM, Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
>> Den 2018-01-24 kl. 22:24, skrev Bill Gunshannon:
>>> On 01/24/2018 04:01 PM, DaveFroble wrote:
>>>> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>>> On 01/24/2018 11:47 AM, DaveFroble wrote:
>>>>>> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>>>>> On 01/24/2018 10:36 AM, DaveFroble wrote:
>>>>>>>> John Reagan wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, January 24, 2018 at 8:49:22 AM UTC-5, Paul Sture wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2018-01-24, Arne Vajhøj <arne at vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/23/2018 3:17 PM, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In article <p45v88$1u3q$1 at gioia.aioe.org>, 
>>>>>>>>>>>> =?UTF-8?Q?Arne_Vajh=c3=b8j?=
>>>>>>>>>>>> <arne at vajhoej.dk> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Languages needed for old stuff:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fortran - HP/VSI, will be ported
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Languages needed for new stuff:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey!  One can write new code in Fortran!
>>>>>>>>>>> You can.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But if you look at 1000 new applications how many of them will
>>>>>>>>>>> actually be in Fortran?
>>>>>>>>>> If you look at the scientific and High Performance world, Fortran
>>>>>>>>>> is still in use.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There is of course lots of existing Fortran 77 code, but Fortran 77
>>>>>>>>>> apparently still has a distinct performance advantage over later
>>>>>>>>>> versions, so it is used for new programs as well.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> My guess: most likely none, maybe one or two.
>>>>>>>>>> Probably more if you confine your search to the sector which uses
>>>>>>>>>> Fortran already.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>>> In 1911, Hollerith's firm was merged with several other producers of
>>>>>>>>>> specialized business equipment to produce CTR, the 
>>>>>>>>>> Computing-Tabulating
>>>>>>>>>> -Recording Company. The "Computing" part referred to weighing 
>>>>>>>>>> scales -
>>>>>>>>>> an interesting example of how language evolves over time.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There is a new Fortran frontend for LLVM named 'flang'.
>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/flang-compiler/flang
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> John, you know a bit about languages.  Let me ask a question.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'll preface the question by admitting that I view much of the "new 
>>>>>>>> languages" as some people who just want to "re-invent the wheel".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Do the "new languages" actually present more and better capabilities?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Some do, for particular things.  Try writing a mobile app in Fortran.
>>>>>>> But for much of the real work that drives business (like processing
>>>>>>> credit card transactions or computing actuary tables languages like
>>>>>>> COBOL and Fortran are still really the best choice.  The only thing
>>>>>>> driving the move away from them is academia's decision to drive the bus
>>>>>>> off a cliff rather than preparing students for entry into the IT world
>>>>>>> (their actual job!!) by not only not teaching the requisite languages
>>>>>>> but trying to sway students into believing the languages are dead and
>>>>>>> totally unused.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> bill
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While not very good at performance, compiler wasn't written for 
>>>>>> performance, Basic can do most of that stuff very well, and much more.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Much the same comparison can be made with your "bus off a cliff" 
>>>>>> comment, when looking at "the professionals" here and their attitude 
>>>>>> toward Basic, right?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Given what it was designed for BASIC was never taken seriously.  Even
>>>>> after ANSIfication it was still not overly practical as most versions
>>>>> were interpreted and not compiled. What data type of none-integer does
>>>>> BASIC support that can do calculations with decimals without the
>>>>> cumulative error common to floating point?
>>>>>
>>>>> bill
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> When talking about DEC Basic, it's not anything like prior 
>>>> implementations.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> DATA_TYPES
>>>>
>>>>    DECIMAL
>>>>
>>>>       The DECIMAL(d,s) data type keyword specifies  packed  decimal 
>>>> data.   A
>>>>       packed  decimal  value  has  a  specified  number  of  digits (d) 
>>>> and a
>>>>       specified decimal point position (s).
>>>>
>>>> Is that Ok ?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Already been addressed.  DEC BASIC != BASIC.
>>>
>>> bill
>>>
>>
>> DECIMAL is part of ANSI X3.113-1987 "Programming Languages Full BASIC".
>>
> 
> Well, apparently there is no copy of the standard viewable on the web.
> Must be another "standard" that cost money just to read.  And then
> they wonder why people fail to implement the standard.  :-)
> 

That is just plain silly. AS far as I saw, it was something like $75
(a two figure value, anyway) for a copy.

> But, I just looked at two BASIC implementations claiming to be
> super-sets of the ANSI standard and neither of them had it.

Claims without references are worthless. What implementations?

> Are
> you sure it is the same as DECIMAL in VMS BASIC or just a reserved
> word?
> 
> bill
>