[Info-vax] Programming languages on VMS
DaveFroble
davef at tsoft-inc.com
Mon Jan 29 11:20:00 EST 2018
Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
> Den 2018-01-29 kl. 00:49, skrev DaveFroble:
>> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>> On 01/27/2018 04:57 AM, Henry Crun wrote:
>>>> On 27-Jan-2018 11:42, Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
>>>>> Den 2018-01-27 kl. 04:02, skrev Bill Gunshannon:
>>>>>> On 01/26/2018 06:06 PM, DaveFroble wrote:
>>>>>>> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 01/26/2018 03:36 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2018-01-24 18:26, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Given what it was designed for BASIC was never taken
>>>>>>>>>> seriously. Even
>>>>>>>>>> after ANSIfication it was still not overly practical as most
>>>>>>>>>> versions
>>>>>>>>>> were interpreted and not compiled. What data type of
>>>>>>>>>> none-integer does
>>>>>>>>>> BASIC support that can do calculations with decimals without the
>>>>>>>>>> cumulative error common to floating point?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Is that a trick question?
>>>>>>>>> BASIC can actually do arithmetic on strings, with arbitrary
>>>>>>>>> precision.
>>>>>>>>> And that's been in several different BASIC dialects I've played
>>>>>>>>> with.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But the problem with BASIC is every one is different. Not the kind
>>>>>>>> of language I would be betting my business on today.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> From the BP2 help:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> FUNCTIONS
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> BUILT-IN
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> SUM$
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The SUM$ function returns a string whose value is the sum of
>>>>>>>>> two numeric
>>>>>>>>> strings.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Format
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> str-vbl = SUM$(str-exp1, str-exp2)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Example
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 600 Sigma$ = SUM$("234.444", A$)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You also have DIF$, PROD$ and QUO$.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Totally unique to DEC. Later RSTS, RSX and then VMS. I have
>>>>>>>> worked with a number of versions of BASIC and no others did it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Considering that VMS BASIC has the DECIMAL type makes one wonder
>>>>>>>> why they keep STRING Arithmetic.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> bill
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> bill
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Once it's in there, it may be more trouble to rip it out, and
>>>>>>> then there are possible customers using the capability.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Guess that depends on why they added an equivalent feature. If it
>>>>>> was to become standard compliant than after a suitable time when the
>>>>>> old way was marked "deprecated" it should go away.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So what if it's DEC specific. Many DEC specific things were /
>>>>>>> are better than anything else available. Why would anyone want
>>>>>>> to choose lowest common denominator when there is better
>>>>>>> available. Your argument makes no sense, unless you expect the
>>>>>>> DEC stuff to go away, which, was an issue for a while.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don;t expect the DEC stuff to go away. I merely pointed out that
>>>>>> the biggest problem with BASIC is that no two are the same. It isn't
>>>>>> least common denominator. It's what is in the standard. There is a
>>>>>> reason people go to so much trouble to make standards. Too bad so
>>>>>> few people end out following them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you choose your cars based upon conformity to a Yugo?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yugo was never a standard. Well, maybe a standard for poor
>>>>>> quality.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you do ANYTHING based upon conformity to "lowest common
>>>>>>> denominator"?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Probably not, but the standard is not "lowest common denominator".
>>>>>> Or, maybe they are and we should just stop writing standards. How
>>>>>> do you think the automotive industry would be without SAE? (Or DIN
>>>>>> in Germany!) Cars was your example....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> bill
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, some/most standards are a good thing. Just think how it would
>>>>> be if not everyone used a metric measuring system! What a mess...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Its been said before, specifically about DEC BASIC: If it had not
>>>> been called BASIC, but say DEC Business Oriented Language, all this
>>>> comparison with different varieties of BASIC would be moot.
>>>
>>> I have long said this. When you change a language you should change
>>> the name and not expect the language to morph to your desires. I
>>> still consider K&R to be C. And not just because of my penchant for
>>> older systems.
>>>
>>>> From my experience working with BP2 on a financial system with
>>>> several thousand modules, transferred fairly painlessly from PDP
>>>> 11-70 RSTS to early (circa V5.5) VMS on VAX and then to Alpha where
>>>> as far as I know it is still extant.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I have no doubt, but what if you had to move it to an IBM 4331? Or a
>>> Univac-1100? (Both of the same point in time.) Both had BASIC but not
>>> the same language as DEC. Thus a good reason to use standard languages
>>> rather than languages so full of "extensions" they hardly represent
>>> the language they claim to be.
>>>
>>> bill
>>
>> If it weren't for what DEC made the language, it probably wouldn't be
>> worth using.
>>
>> I don't HAVE to move software to an IBM, or anything else. I'm happy
>> with VMS.
>>
>> If someone does desire such a move, they are going to pay, dearly. I
>> had a customer that for some reason wanted to move away from VMS, and
>> to weendoze. Note that this was to most reliable system they had. I
>> gave them a quote which I figured would put a stop to such ideas.
>> They're desire was so strong that they came up with the money. And so
>> I totally re-wrote the software using VB6. Any sort of port was
>> nonsense. I of course used the original for reference. And I cashed
>> the check.
>>
>
> And what happened to the VB6 app? Still in use? The maintenance situation
> for VB6 is quite bad today...
Don't know, we went our separate ways. Knowing the people involved, it most
likely is still in use.
Not sure what you mean by "maintenance situation". VB6 still does today what it
did in the past. Out of support from Microsoft, as far as I know. I haven't
been able to install it on a weendoze 7 system, or later. I have seen
information on how to do so.
And since this thread has discussed portability, all I'll say about that is
don't try to port VB6 code to VB.net. You will be VERY unhappy. VB isn't
portable on weendoze.
Perhaps Steve should consider such a disgusting software vendor before going on
too much about the evils of upward compatibility. The grass ain't greener on
the other side of the fence, it's brown and crinkly.
--
David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef at tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA 15486
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