[Info-vax] Internationalization

[Dave Froble]

On 12/31/2018 9:03 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 12/31/18 8:26 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 12/31/2018 1:04 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>> On 12/31/18 11:36 AM, Dave Froble wrote:
>>>> On 12/31/2018 7:00 AM, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
>>>>> Well, the world does not stand still. We have a long list of
>>>>> development
>>>>> projects on our Alpha environment. Both updates to the current apps
>>>>> but
>>>>> also new applications.
>>>>>
>>>>> And I do not think that the Alpha offer from VSI was put together only
>>>>> for us, so there must be a conciderable number of similar sites.
>>>>
>>>> I think that there may be more sites running old Alphas than
>>>> anything else.  For sure there were enough for VSI to decide they
>>>> needed an Alpha release of their own.  As "their own" HP is out of
>>>> the picture.
>>>>
>>>> I'm rather sure that the first build of "their own" would be the
>>>> most labor intensive.  While additional releases will have some cost
>>>> to VSI, most likely not near as much, and so perhaps there will be
>>>> further Alpha releases.
>>>
>>> Software availability is only one term of the equation.  The one
>>> easily fixed.  The hardware is not going to be around for much
>>> longer.
>>
>> Physical hardware becomes old and fragile.
>>
>> But emulators does not age the same way.
>>
>> So "Alpha's" may be around for decades to come.
>>
>> Similar to the market for VAX emulators.
>>
>>>> If there is a significant number of sites using Alpha VMS, who are
>>>> willing to pay for support, that's chunk of change that VSI needs to
>>>> consider and go after.
>>>>
>>>> You mentioned perhaps never going off Alpha.  Can you suggest
>>>> reasons for that?  DEC made some very reliable stuff, but, in time
>>>> the costs and efforts will increase.  I guess my question is, do
>>>> reasons for not using x86 when it's available exist?
>>>
>>> A better question would be do (valid) reasons for staying
>>> on Alpha once a viable alternative is there exist.
>>
>> The typical reasons for staying on old platform are:
>> 1) some software dependency is not available on the new platform
>
> A valid concern.  But one that needs to be addressed before it
> becomes a potential disaster.

Software is in some ways easier than hardware.  Most likely there is no 
option of new VAX, Alpha, and soon itanic CPUs.  Not saying it cannot 
happen, but the cost will be rather high, and there will be alternatives.

But best thing is, software does not break.  What it did yesterday, it 
will do today, and tomorrow.

>> 2) some special hardware is not available on the new platform
>
> Wouldn't that preclude the use of an emulator?  But, same as
> above.

Not necessarily, but this is not an area I'm familiar with.

>> 3) migration cost too high
>
> Now high does it have to be to risk being shot out of the water
> by an unrepairable system failure?

Methods to avoid this can be devised.

>> #1 will come in effect if some vendors supporting VMS Alpha
>> will not support VMS x86-64. I believe both PL/I and Ada
>> may end up in that category.

But, it's not something that just cannot be done.  There is the issue of 
cost.

> Then it becomes time to look at moving off VMS.  Or changing
> language before it becomes a critical problem.

I really, really like the way some people throw this out.  Sometimes 
it's not feasible.  Like in "the operation was a success, but the 
patient died".  It's really interesting how some people are so free with 
other people's money.  Ever hear about "biting off more than you can 
chew"?  Ever hear about "choking on it"?

I've seen companies die because of this.  Yeah, it's not your company, 
what do you care?

Ever hear about "being practical"?

>> #2 will probably be rare. I don't think there were ever as much
>> custom hardware for Alpha as for VAX. And in case of #2 then
>> emulators are not an option either.

Lots of stuff available for PCs.

> Guess it depends on the Alpha.  The Alpha I had (a gift to the
> school from Compaq) that ran VMS had a PCI bus so any hardware
> that fit in there would fit in a x86 box as well.  Then it
> is just a software problem.  But, as you said, not as likely
> with the Alpha as it was with the VAX.
>
>>
>> #3 will depend on VSI's approach. Just rebuild and it will run
>> then #3 is not an issue. If breaking too much then it is
>> another story.
>
> If you can't migrate to X86-64 VMS it is probably time to
> evaluate your whole operation.  Staying in the 20th century
> is unlikely to be a wise decision.  Unless all the important
> people plan to retire soon and don't really care about the
> long term future of the company.

Sigh, please read above ....

>> My guess is that the vast majority of remaining
>> Alpha users will migrate.
>>
>> I just suspect that the migration will be very slow.
>>
>> Those that migrate fast already have migrated to I64.

This I think is key.  The reasons will most likely be unique for some. 
No solution until the problem is well understood.

> Possibly, but I suspect many saw the I64 as a dead end
> from the start and may have opted to not waste the money
> migrating knowing if they did another migration would be
> in their not too distant future. Either to the replacement
> for I64 which we now see, or away from VMS.

For us, it was mainly compile, link, test, and run.  I'm not too sure 
why there are those who cannot.  Perhaps bad decisions long ago.  But, 
VMS has been rather good about this capability.  I'd guess they'd only 
get better at it.

> Like it or  not, the choices are going to be rather simple.
> Migrate to X86-64 VMS or migrate away from VMS or plan
> for a demise in the not too distant future.

Or find a better choice.

> As I mentioned in a previous post, it would be very interesting
> to learn why VMS was chosen for a lot of the systems that are
> still on it.  VMS was never the only choice.  If it was chosen
> for a reason is that reason still valid today?

If it is the only environment that will run your applications, is that 
good enough?

I just wish those sounding like people from the big accounting and 
consulting firms would "get a clue".  Most of those firms have people 
who have never did anything, nor know anything, and are listened to by 
the clueless.  The people who's parents built something, and because 
they get put in charge, feel they actually know anything.  Many times 
they don't, they listen to the clueless, and they lose.


-- 
David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef at tsoft-inc.com
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