[Info-vax] Java on VMS, was: Re: So is there still a hobbyist program or not

[Dave Froble]

On 7/21/2019 3:46 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 7/21/2019 3:31 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
>> On 7/21/2019 3:24 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> On 7/21/2019 12:30 PM, Dave Froble wrote:
>>>> On 7/21/2019 10:55 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>> On 7/21/2019 8:46 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>>>>> On 2019-07-21, Simon Clubley
>>>>>> <clubley at remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> However, even though it is the newer of the two, Java will actually
>>>>>>> probably die off quicker than COBOL, especially given the stunts
>>>>>>> that Oracle are pulling over its licencing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A question about Java on the server (instead of client):
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For those of you using Java on the server, what are you moving to
>>>>>> for new development if you are thinking of moving away from Java ?
>>>>>
>>>>> The likely options for the server side of a total new
>>>>> business application are pretty well known:
>>>>>
>>>>> The current king: Java.
>>>>>
>>>>> The big contenders:
>>>>> * .NET
>>>>> * PHP
>>>>>
>>>>> The more exotic choices:
>>>>> * keep JVM but switch language to Scala or Kotlin or Groovy
>>>>> * .NET Core
>>>>> * Python
>>>>> * Ruby
>>>>> * node.js (JavaScript)
>>>>>
>>>>> There are plenty of options.
>>>>
>>>> Gee, that's not how I would do it ....
>>>
>>> I believe that.
>>>
>>> But I also believe that your choice would not be considered by most
>>> businesses.
>>
>> The first thing to do is study the needs.
>> Then research possible existing solutions.
>> Next decide how to approach the needs.
>> Pick the best solution.
>>
>> Note that the best solution will depend on multiple things, and
>> perhaps what you mentioned may be the best solution.  But if it is
>> not, don't attempt to force the square peg in the round hole.
>>
>> The thing is Arne, you approached such a system from the back end, not
>> the starting end.  You made assumptions before even knowing what
>> needed to be accomplished.  A very good way to fail.
>
> Obviously smart to look at specific requirements when there
> is a specific project.
>
> But this was not a specific project but more of an industry
> trend when starting from scratch question.
>
> That said then I would expect most in the category "server side
> of a total new business application" to be doable in most of the
> above - it is mostly very generic tools (PHP and node.js are
> probably the most specific).
>
> If you look at the stuff you do, then you mostly do it in Basic,
> but my guess is that you could just as well had done it in
> Pascal (or maybe even Cobol) - and the reason you chose
> Basic was more about your skill set than the specific task
> at hand.
>
> Arne
>
>

Prior to the early 1970s the lower end of computing was usually present 
the info on paper, punch cards with new info, run the deck(s) of cards, 
and print more paper.

In the early 1970s the concepts and capabilities of actually being 
on-line, terminal sessions, and such was just getting started.  My 
company at that time was one of the leaders of this new trend.

At that time, DEC had arguably (that's right Bill) some of the best 
equipment and software for this new development.  RSTS/E and Basic+ was 
a very good choice.  From that grew BP2, the VAX and in time VAX Basic, 
and such.

Basic, DEC's variety, was a VERY good choice for such development.  The 
years since have proved that.  Many applications were implemented in 
Basic.  Many!

At one time HP approached my old company about using their products. 
They had a "pretty much" clone of DEC's Basic+, if I remember correctly. 
  I was in charge of the evaluation.  The final verdict was that we used 
too many OS calls to easily use the HP product.

During that time, DEC's version of Basic has been improved as new needs 
arose.

I don't know your background, but at times is sounds like your 
perspective is "all one needs to do is set up a web server".  There 
seems to be a lot of that going around lately, but, from my perspective, 
that's generic, and as Scott mentioned, businesses need applications 
that serve their business needs.  If that's all a business needs, then 
they have no advantages over their competitors.

It is apps that allow a business to do exactly what they need/want to do 
that allows those businesses to prosper.

For some businesses Basic has allowed such apps to be developed quite 
easily.

-- 
David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef at tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
Vanderbilt, PA  15486