[Info-vax] Any stronger versions of the LMF planned ?, was: Re: LMF Licence Generator Code

[Bill Gunshannon]

On 8/7/21 7:40 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 8/7/2021 6:42 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> On 8/7/21 5:56 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> On 8/7/2021 7:59 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>>                                                       Go read some
>>>> of the stuff on LinkedIn about "Legacy Systems".  Not specifically
>>>> about VMS but the attitude is even if it still does the job if it
>>>> is old (ie. COBOL) it is bad and a problem.
>>>
>>> Being old is not a problem in itself.
>>
>> Being old is never a problem in itself.  I'm old and regularly
>> compete with people less than half my age, successfully.
>>
>>> It becomes a problem if:
>>> - it is out of support
>>
>> Lack of support for one part of an IS should not be a reason to
>> abandon it in its entirety.
> 
> If that part cannot be replaced: yes it is.

If your running a VAX then it might be a problem.  But, believe it
or not, most legacy systems are not running on old or non-existant
hardware.  VMS being the main exception.  :-)

> 
> And even if that part can be replaced then the question is at what
> cost compared top the replacement. And it also raises the question
> about whether other parts will go out of support soon.

As has been stated here numerous times in the past, unless you are
running custom hardware and doing things like device control this
is not likely to be a problem.  let's limit this to the kind of
things VMS is actually used for in most cases.

> 
>>> - it is hard to find people with skills
>>
>> That is a fixable problem.
>>
>> https://edscoop.com/college-legacy-programming-langauges-grant-bill/
> 
> That is a good proposal.
> 
> But do you expect serious companies to base their future on that
> such a bill get approved, 

I  have little doubt that it will be approved.  Financially it is a
totally non-apparent bump in the budget.

>                            that funding will continue in the future

That will depend on whether or not academia decides to swallow their
pride and get behind the idea.  I am doing what I can to try and help
it, but for totally non-technical reasons it is going to be a hard sell.

> and that students will be interested?

I had students interested in legacy systems when I still worked at
the University even with members of the faculty attacking much of
what I was selling.

> 
>>> - it does not integrate with newer system that it need to
>>>    integrate with
>>
>> With the exception of Dave's system (I actually know very little
>> about VMS BASIC) I can think of no legacy system that can not be
>> integrated into a modern system.  I have had no problems doing web
>> programming with COBOL.
> 
> Anything can be somewhat integrated using various hacks.

I needed no hacks to get COBOL running on the web.  It's a mindset
problem, not a technical one.

> 
> But good integration will often be either impossible or
> expensive.

I would like to see examples of this,  Real ones, not some of the
typical contrived examples I usually see where the target moves
with every new iteration.  There are a lot of modern, used everyday
ISes that are based on what are called legacy systems and languages.
MOst of the users never notice.

> 
>>> - it is expensive to maintain
>>
>> In the case of legacy systems expense is more objective than
>> subjective.  A little research will show how the majority of
>> these modernization projects usually run way over budget and
>> seldom accomplish their original goal.
> 
> Huge IT projects are in general risky.
> 
> Migration projects are no exception.
> 

Which is all the more reason to stay the course and clearly
understand "modernization" before you start throwing terms
around.  A COBOL IS running on a PDP-11 or TOPS system does
not need a new language.  Re-writting it in Java or C# or
even Python will get you nothing but a potential for new
bugs, inefficiencies and business logic problems.

bill