[Info-vax] Licenses on VAX/VMS 4.0/4.1 source code listing scans

[Arne Vajhøj]

On 12/14/2021 9:02 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 12/13/21 9:34 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 12/13/2021 3:44 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>                                                It was done
>>> using DEC COBOL until the day they made me remove the last VMS
>>> machines from my data center.  It was not unsuitability that
>>> resulted in these changes it was politics.  Both VMS and COBOL
>>> were seen as "legacy". Something the students shouldn't even
>>> be introduced to.  VMS was easier to get rid of because all
>>> they had to do was tell me to get rid of the hardware.  COBOL
>>> took a little longer (and a lot more work) because the course
>>> using it had to be redone.
>>>
>>>> Cobol first got OO features in 2002.
>>>>
>>>> It is pretty obvious from the timeline that lack of interest
>>>> in OO Cobol was not the reason for Cobol's missing presence
>>>> in education.
>>>
>>> Really?  Then where do you assign the blame?
>>
>> Lack of demand for the skill.
> 
> Except that the demand is still there.

There are some demand but pretty small compared to the entire market.

>                                       General Dynamics (who
> maintain the DOD EMR I mentioned) once offered internships for
> undergrad students because they were finding it necessary to
> train their own COBOL programmers.  They would take any student
> who had at least the basic undergrad intro course and the ad
> claimed they would teach them COBOL on the job.  I can tell
> you that the some of the faculty where I was told the students
> not to apply.

It happens occasionally that companies train people in Cobol.

But it is like a dozen here and a dozen there.

Python, Java, C# get hundreds of thousands every year.

>> Most students know somebody in the industry and if they hear
>> that companies hire C, C++, Java, Delphi, VB6 (late 90's!) then
>> they do not go for Cobol. Most students want to work with the
>> new growing languages not with old declining languages.
> 
> And, thus, miss out on some very good opportunities.  Those
> government positions I mentioned offer, as well as good pay,
> one of the best retirement plans in existence, very good health
> care and more time off than most private businesses.  As well
> as long term stability.  It is virtually impossible to lose
> a government job unless you opt to quit.  I can give you some
> really good anecdotes to support that, too, from personal
> experience.  :-)

Yes. But it is generally considered more fun to work on something
that is growing than to maintain something that is considered
doomed - even if it realistically will take decades to get off the
old stuff.

>> The fact that there may a great career in old languages
>> because old code tend to continue running for decade after decade
>> rarely appeals to students.
> 
> Again, my experience differs.  I used to sit and chat with my
> students in the labs and many of them verified the things I
> was telling them about COBOL.  But, sadly, they were still
> left with no training and most people will take the job they
> know how to do over the one they don't.  Even if they really
> could learn it easily.

If students wanted to learn Cobol they would learn Cobol.

Neither ASP classic nor PHP was ever big in education but millions
managed to learn them anyway.

>> And that some of the then growing languages went in decline pretty
>> quickly (Delphi and VB6 turned out to decline faster than Cobol!)
>> was also not considered.
> 
> So it is with most language du jour.

Some thrive long term - some declines after relative few years.

C++, Java, Python, C# turned long term viable.

Delphi, VB6 declined quickly.

We don't know yet how Ruby, Scala, Rust, Go, Kotlin will do.

In 10-15 years we will know.

>                                      There are still a lot of
> Fortran jobs out there, too. But like COBOL you need to search
> for them.

One need to search to fine the rare stuff.

Arne