[Info-vax] OpenVMS app development, kitting

[David Goodwin]

On Thursday, November 25, 2021 at 10:51:02 AM UTC+13, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 11/24/2021 3:44 PM, David Goodwin wrote: 
> > On Thursday, November 25, 2021 at 9:20:55 AM UTC+13, Arne Vajhøj wrote: 
> >> On 11/24/2021 2:26 PM, David Goodwin wrote: 
> >>> On Tuesday, November 23, 2021 at 8:19:21 PM UTC+13, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote: 
> >>>> On 11/22/2021 1:36 PM, Stephen Hoffman wrote: 
> >>>>> BTW: OpenVMS customers REJECTED an offer to open-source OpenVMS. Yes. 
> >>>>> Really. Outright rejected that. Put slightly differently, some of the 
> >>>>> open-source preferences around here can be... unexpected. Even among 
> >>>>> folks that have worked with OpenVMS for decades. 
> >>>> No surprise. People who use VMS like VMS. People who use VMS don't 
> >>>> like some open-source code, and don't like Richard 
> >>>> if-your-code-is-not-open-source-then-that-is-a-crime-against-humanity M. 
> >>>> Stallman and his ilk driving the community. (Yes, Stallman---who by all 
> >>>> accounts seems to be a rather creepy guy---really said that, insulting 
> >>>> millions of victims of real crimes against humanity.) 
> >>>> 
> >>>> Has VMS been handled badly by its owners, including DEC? Sure. Should 
> >>>> the solution be open source? Probably not. The world is not black and 
> >>>> white, though it seems that more and more people try to see it that way, 
> >>>> e.g. either one supports Trump or one is woke. Whatever happened to 
> >>>> old-fashioned common sense? 
> >>> 
> >>> If it had been open sourced then VAX hobbyists wouldn't be loosing access 
> >>> to OpenVMS at the end of this year. Same goes for people with older Alpha 
> >>> hardware. 
> >>> 
> >>> I think the main thing open-sourcing it would have achieved is securing *a* 
> >>> future for it. It would have guaranteed access indefinitely to anyone with an 
> >>> interest in running it. 
> >>> 
> >>> Now is there is no guarantee VMS will be available long term - its continued 
> >>> availability depends on it being profitable. If VSI is not replacing every customer 
> >>> that leaves then eventually everyone who is not the original owner of a permanent 
> >>> license will find themselves in the same situation as VAX hobbyists. 
> >> I don't think there is much point as I don't think VSI can make VMS 
> >> open source and HPE won't make VMS open source. 
> >> 
> >> But even if they could and would, then I am not so sure about how 
> >> well it would work out. 
> >> 
> >> The VMS community is notorious for how few that actually contribute 
> >> to open source, so the VMS community could not drive the development. 
> >> 
> >> VSI can drive the development, but need to make money. Redhat makes 
> >> a lot of money from Linux, but there is a lot of Linux systems out there 
> >> and Redhat can keep the price so low that their commercial offering 
> >> still sell despite various free clones. But VMS does not have that 
> >> volume. 
> > 
> > Yeah, it seems unlikely the OpenVMS community would jump in and keep 
> > the operating system alive. But I expect if the code was available someone 
> > would eventually compile it and a free distribution of OpenVMS would then 
> > exist. 
> > 
> > Supposedly HPE was considering open-sourcing it but if that was ever going 
> > to happen it had to happen back when HPE announced OpenVMS was dead. 
> > When there were still people at HPE who knew what OpenVMS was and 
> > before VSI stepped in. I expect by the time OpenVMS is no longer 
> > commercially viable at VSI there will be no one left at HPE with the ability 
> > to open-source it. Most likely at some point in the next few decades 
> > OpenVMS will join Tru64, Ultrix and all the other operating systems that can 
> > not be licensed anymore. 
> >
> Got to ask, what HW did/does those old OSs run on? VAX is no more. Alpha is no 
> more. Itanic is no more. Anything HP could open up has no HW to run on. So 
> what does it matter whether it's open or not? 

Historic preservation.

Its interesting exploring an era of computing I never got to experience first hand using 
real hardware. Something people can no longer do unless they've either got a lot of
money or are willing to break the law.

An open-source OpenVMS would have fixed this (though not as well as a non-expiring
hobbyist license - I liked playing with even older versions too). But the opportunity, if
there ever was one, has passed.