[Info-vax] OpenVMS developmen integration with Azure DevOps.

[Dave Froble]

Jan-Erik, I'm going to argue with you ...

:-)


On 9/1/2021 7:05 PM, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
> Den 2021-09-01 kl. 23:31, skrev Dave Froble:
>> On 9/1/2021 10:52 AM, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
>>> Den 2021-09-01 kl. 14:35, skrev Arne Vajhøj:
>>>> On 9/1/2021 5:47 AM, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
>>>>> There are talks around our OpenVMS environment and project work
>>>>> where it is looked at to add Azure DevOps to our work environment.
>>>>>
>>>>> They are talkning about "pipelines" within Azure DevOps where
>>>>> the build procedures are setup and the build is run from within
>>>>> the Azure Devops environment.
>>>>>
>>>>> Does anyone have any comments around this? Have anyone looked at
>>>>> using Azure DevOps for their OpenVMS development/test/deploy?
>>>>>
>>>>> Has anyone looked at other tools (DECset?) to do anything in
>>>>> this direction?
>>>>
>>>> I suspect that typical VMS processes are a few decades behind
>>>> modern cloud devops processes.
>>>>
>>>> But most things are possible with some effort.
>>>>
>>>> I know that:
>>>> - John Malmberg & vms-ports use Jenkins for builds
>>>> - Jenkins integrate with Azure devops
>>>>
>>>> https://sourceforge.net/p/vms-ports/wiki/UsingJenkinsCi/
>>>>
>>>> https://medium.com/@bbenz/azure-devops-and-jenkins-in-perfect-harmony-8c92ff980723
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Maybe some of that stuff can be utilized.
>>>>
>>>> Arne
>>>>
>>>
>>> Right, the guy that made the Azure DevOps presentation from our group
>>> had a hard time to understand why we just didn't copy our source codes
>>> to a Azure VM and just run the build from DevOps... :-)
>>
>> Right, so he didn't know what he was talking about, huh?
>
> He knew very well what he was talkning about! Azure Devops...
> But he didn't know a) that we use OpenVMS and b) what OpenVMS is.
> That was not his fault.

He may have known his subject matter, but it seems to me that he didn't 
do any preliminary work on understanding his intended audience.  Any 
decent presenter would think to do so.

>> Who wants to follow this pied piper into the swamp, and worse?
>>
>>> We had to run a quick presentation of OpenVMS on our Alpha dev system.
>>> Oh, so it is Cobol?
>>> Oh, so it is a main-frame?
>>> Oh, so this is not running on X86?
>>
>> As observer, the guy had no idea what he was talking about.
>
> He very well did. Not his fault he hadn't been updated correctly
> by the guy who had asked him to run the presentation for our group.

I'd suggest he didn't do due diligence.  I've been in that position a 
few times, (tried hard to avoid such), and I made sure I understood my 
audience.  I hated coming off as uninformed.

>> Some question for the jerk ...
>>
>> The current system is working just fine, why should we take your advice?
>
> The *system* works just fine. But our development processes does not.

What is the problem there?  Perhaps I can help?  :-)

>> What will we get?  A sideways move, at best, and more likely bugs and
>> less.
>
> We might end up using DevOps just to get a better development process.
> That is, the administrative part. Technically we might keep what we have.
>
>>
>> Who is going to pay for this?
>
> Does it matter?

It matters a lot ...

Hire me if you have an unlimited purse ...

:-)

> The goal is to get a better development process and
> better deliveries of functionallity to the business.

Any goal needs first a good solution plan ...

>> What is the business case to do anything?
>
> The mess within the development processes.

Which you haven't yet described ...

>> The list is long ....
>>
>
> Now, *I* is not convinced that any new support system will help
> us, as long as we have the organization and the staffing we have.
> We have a group of "developers" that have none or very little
> background from VMS. They might know Cobol, but...

That sounds very strange to me ..

> I spend a considerable part of by consulting hours to "support"
> our developers with guidings and suggestion around the more basic
> OpenVMS stuff. How logical names works. How mailboxes works.
> A lot of other basic VMS stuff. 6 years now and 3 major change
> of staff and it is not getting better.

Doesn't seem "right" to me that the developers devise any plans.  That 
takes someone who knows the environment quite well.  Pure coders can 
follow a plan.  They might not be good at planning.  Do we have the 
inmates running the asylum?

> But they are payed 1/3 of my hourly rate...

Perhaps now we know the problem ...

:-)

Perhaps I'm spoiled.  With our Codis product, a single command will do a 
complete build of the application from sources.  Perhaps I'm a bit 
biased, since I did the design of the procedures.  :-)

I do not believe that any generic system could do better, or even as 
well.  Of course "belief" usually doesn't require actual proof.

-- 
David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef at tsoft-inc.com
DFE Ultralights, Inc.
170 Grimplin Road
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