[Info-vax] Rust as a HS language, was: Re: Quiet?

[chris]

On 04/04/22 18:56, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-04-04, Arne Vajhøj<arne at vajhoej.dk>  wrote:
>> On 4/4/2022 8:28 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>> 2) No official ISO or similar language standard I can rely on 5/10/20 years
>>> from now when I need to work on my safety or general production critical
>>> code at that point.
>>>
>>> Even though many of the Rust people appear not to understand this, the
>>> lack of those guarantees is a _massive_ problem in the real world.
>>
>> Not really. Lot of popular languages are not formally standardized.
>> Python and PHP are not standardized. C# is/was standardized but the
>> standard is 6 versions behind. It took 13 years before C++ got
>> standardized.
>>
>
> You have just made my point for me Arne. Or to put it another way,
> Python 2 to Python 3.
>
> Why wasn't Python 3 just another language mode in the existing compiler
> instead of being a whole different compiler ?
>
> Why did Python 2.7 stay around for as long as it did ? How many are still
> using it these days due to an existing code base ?
>
> I can compile C89 code on a compiler 33 years later. When another standard
> for C is released, it becomes just another language mode in the existing
> compilers and all the existing C standards are still supported.
>
> How confident are you that I can compile C89 code in yet another 10 years ?
>
> In comparison, how confident are you that I can compile existing Python 3
> or Rust code in another 10 years ?
>
> What's to stop the Rust people from having some great language revamp a
> few years from now and then stop supporting the existing language variant ?
>
> The Python people did that and it's a _much_ more popular language than
> Rust so what's to stop the Rust people from doing the same thing ?
>
>> If there is a desire for ISO Rust then it could happen. The likelihood
>> of it happening will increase if different implementations show up.
>>
>>> 3) Unlike mainstream programming languages, the Rust community always
>>> seems to be lurching from one social drama to the next.
>>>
>>> That in itself is an instant switchoff because the community is one
>>> major social crisis away from falling apart (at least until it's then
>>> rebuilt and a new direction emerges).
>>>
>>> You can't rely on a programming language when something like that is
>>> a real possibility. You wouldn't see social crisis stuff on the C/C++/Ada
>>> language standards groups for example.
>>
>> I don't think the number of heated discussions in the rust community
>> is unique. They may be a bit more transparent about it than most. And
>> the "internet tabloid press" loves that type of stuff. But has anything
>> actually been significant delayed due to it?
>>
>
> I'm talking about the social stuff, not the technical stuff.
>
> It's the stuff that can become so toxic, it can cause a community
> itself to become damaged.
>
> Simon.
>

I think the point is that languages take time to evolve and the path
can be unstable until there is enough critical mass to produce a fully
documented and standard version. I would expect that to take a decade
or more. No good for serious work without that professionalism. Toy
and experimental otherwise.

That's the great thing about C, so old now that all the real
issues have been thrashed out...

Chris