[Info-vax] And another one bites the dust....

[Dave Froble]

On 2/20/2022 3:46 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 2/20/22 12:29, Dave Froble wrote:
>> On 2/20/2022 9:49 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>> On 2/20/22 00:17, Dave Froble wrote:
>>>> On 2/19/2022 11:02 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>>> On 2/19/22 21:07, Dan Cross wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Bit of a trim of the old stuff needed ...
>>>>
>>>> To me, a university is there to teach a person how to think and learn.
>>>
>>> That's definitely part of it.  BUt, based on observing life around us
>>> today, they appear to have abdicated the part about learning to think
>>> as well as COBOL.  :-)  They do  not teach yo how to learn.  It is
>>> pretty  much assumed you got that in the schools before you got to
>>> University.
>>
>> Bad assumption.  In secondary schools, and grade schools, one is taught facts.
>> One isn't taught to think much about the facts.  After all, onme would need
>> the facts before being able to think about them.  But at some time some more
>> abstract thought about the world around us is needed, and that should happen
>> at university.  At least, that's how I see it.
>
> I think a bit of confusion. Students learn how to learn before
> University.  Universities then present information and it is up
> to the student to "learn".  Professors really don't care if you
> learn anything in their class.  Not their responsibility.  No one
> gets individual attention.  After all, if you don;t learn the
> material the first time around you can always take the class again.

I do remember at least one professor saying "I'm here to present the 
information, learning is your job."  I also remember that professor, and others, 
who would be very helpful in one on one consultations.  Quite a bit of 
individual attention when it was asked for.

>>>> When my son started school, he asked "what type of job should I learn to do?".
>>>
>>> Bad question.
>>
>> I always say, there is no such thing as a bad question.  If someone has a
>> question, that indicates he/she "doesn't know", and is trying to find out.
>> However, there can be bad answers.
>
> There can certainly be bad questions.  The question he should have been
> asking is what do I want to do with my life.  Asking someone else what
> kind of job you should get just sets you up for disappointment and a
> very stressful life.  Learned from experience.  :-)

Well, there you go ...

He didn't know to ask that question.  Then what.  That is why I told him he was 
in school to broaden his horizons.  And he did.

>>>  But then, that's probably why so many students end out
>>> taking 5 to 6 years to get that degree because they really don;t know
>>> why  they are even there.
>>
>> I believe David took 8 years before getting a degree in geology.  And you are
>> correct, many don't know why they are there when going to university.  A
>> university should help students at least partially figure out what they are
>> doing.
>
> Nope, not their job.  They are not psychologists and they are not
> guidance counselors (although my experience with them in high school
> left much to be desired!)  One should have made the decision about
> what one is going to study even before they have picked the school
> they are going to attend.  Once you get there they can only recommend
> what courses of study they offer.  None of them may be the right fit
> for any particular student.

I'd choose to partially disagree with that.

>>>>        My reply was "You aren't going to learn a job.  You're going there to
>>>> learn how to learn, and think, and to learn about the world that you haven't
>>>> seen yet."

The way things worked out is, David took a number of elective classes.  There is 
that "broaden horizon" thing again.  One of the classes was an intro to geology, 
not something he'd ever considered, and he really liked the subject.  He went on 
to get a degree in geology.

So yeah, a university can have much to do with a person choosing what to do with 
their life.

And after working in the field for a while, he moved on.  Currently a reactor 
operator at a nuclear power station.  Strange how things change over the years.

>>> And partly a wrong answer.  Colleges are trade schools.  They are
>>> trade schools for the white collar class.  Bankers, CPA's, chemists,
>>> lawyers, future CEO's and yes, systems analysts (which is actually
>>> a higher level programmer than today's buzzword, "coder".)  You are
>>> certainly not going to learn any of that in the local Vo/Tech or even
>>> Community College.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> As to teaching Cobol, learning computer languages should be a part of
>>>> university, if the student chooses.  I had a semester of Cobol when I was in
>>>> school, maybe 50 some years ago.
>>>
>>> 50 years ago?  What school and what degree program?  Computers were in
>>> their infancy in the University system in those days with only a couple
>>> major colleges offering degrees in it.
>>
>> I graduated from the University of Pittsburgh in 1973.  At that time they
>> didn't have a CS major.  My BS is in math.
>
> Which is where most of the CS Departments came from.  I am surprised
> they offered COBOL, but then Pitt was at the forefront of CS and is
> still a very good bet.
>
>>
>>>> What I would not agree with is misinformation.  If a professor is misleading
>>>> students based upon his/her own bias about how the world should be run, well,
>>>> that's dishonest, and it should be "former professor".
>>>
>>> But that is what too much of college has become, and especially  in CS.
>>> They are no longer satisfied with merely driving the bus they now want
>>> to even tell the riders where they want to go.
>>
>> I may have mentioned over inflated egos in the past ...
>>
>>>> As for skills, to me is seems it always comes down to OJT.  No school is going
>>>> to teach exactly what a particular employer needs.  Some basics, and how to
>>>> learn, yes.  Details, no.
>>>
>>> That's true up to a point.  A new entry level job always includes OJT.
>>> But there is an expectation that the candidate has basic skills for
>>> the tasks they are expected to do.  You don't start in the construction
>>> business as a master carpenter but your boss expects you to know which
>>> end of the hammer should strike the nail.
>>
>> Some idea of "how to do", yes, I agree.  My CS minor included multiple
>> languages and subjects.  I still remember toggling in a boot loader on the
>> PDP-6.  Cobol and Fortran languages.  But it was only on the job that I
>> learned Basic.
>
> A single 3 credit course in COBOL is barely enough time to learn "how
> to do".  Today even more so as the functionality of the language has
> expanded greatly over the years.  There is a lot done with COBOL today
> that your professors probably hadn't even anticipated.

But it is certainly enough to get one started, so additional skills can be learned.


-- 
David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450
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