[Info-vax] Python for x86?

[Craig A. Berry]

On 4/12/23 11:37 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 4/12/2023 11:30 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote:
>> Arne Vajh?j <arne at vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>>> But it could also be an estimated effort problem. It is my impression
>>> that Perl is evolving reasonable slowly and that the VMS port has
>>> been rock solid for decades. And all versions has been build
>>> for both Alpha and Itanium. That sort of make it easier to
>>> port and know what is a source problem and what is a tool problem.
>>
>> One thought I had, after reading the replies.  The technical reasons make
>> sense.  However, in reality, might there not be more Perl code running on
>> VMS than Python?  I know that on my personal servers I have a fair 
>> amount of
>> Perl, but then I've spent over 26 years with Perl as my primary language.
>> My interest in Python is that I am now doing things that require it, so
>> being able to use it on VMS would be an advantage to me.
> 
> Maybe.
> 
> If we look at the IT industry over all then:
> - Perl is a niche language known by the smart *nix nerds
>    primarily used for admin scripting today (after having had
>    some golden years in the late 90's early 00's for web
>    development)

And not just local admin scripting.  It's a dependency for autoconf.
It's heavily used by other build processes and system utilities in the
BSD and Linux worlds.  Various potentially breaking changes in Perl
analogous to those in Python 3 have been shot down because the whole
internet would stop.  And because Hyrum's Law.

> - Python is one of the top 3 languages - widely used for
>    admin scripting, big data/data-analysis/ML/AI, web
>    development (Django), education etc. etc.

It's had massive investment by Google and others and its original author
has stuck around to see it through the 2 to 3 transition even if
stepping back from the role of benevolent dictator for life. Its success
is impressive but I don't know how much it has to do with the language
itself.

> But VMS is not like the overall IT industry.
> 
> A lot of VMS systems are old and from a time where
> Perl was bigger than Python.
> 
> In traditional admin scripts for VMS there are
> probably way more Perl than Python (DCL is still king
> in this area despite its various gaps).
> 
> But there has also been done a lot of Python work on VMS
> the last 15 years in the area of integration between
> VMS applications and other stuff the companies are
> running.

Python 3 requires libffi.  I believe it was an impediment to getting
Python 3 on Alpha because it involved finding someone who knew Alpha
assembler who could implement a module in that.  Obviously a lot of
people, relatively speaking, know x86 assembler, but the ones at VSI may
have other stuff to do.  Also, I believe Perl is a dependency for
building OpenSSL, which is part of the VMS base install.  While the
current OpenSSL kits are probably cross builds, that may be changing
soon and it may have something to do with the order of porting.  I also
have the impression that at least some people at VSI use Perl frequently
as the swiss army chainsaw it's known for.