[Info-vax] "Shanghai Stock Exchange" and OpenVMS

[AEF]

On Jan 24, 3:59 pm, billg... at cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> In article <5288d49e-e43a-463e-a02c-bffcf1393... at o4g2000pra.googlegroups.com>,
>         AEF <spamsink2... at yahoo.com> writes:
>
>
>
> > On Jan 23, 9:38 am, billg... at cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> >> In article <05b548fd-8d1f-48c9-80c4-777bf5f6c... at q35g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>,
> >>         AEF <spamsink2... at yahoo.com> writes:
>
> >> > On Jan 22, 8:41 pm, billg... at cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> >> >> In article <abd32391-46d6-49e4-aa1c-58d74dcc7... at p2g2000prn.googlegroups.com>,
> >> >>         AEF <spamsink2... at yahoo.com> writes:
> >> >> > On Jan 22, 3:31 pm, billg... at cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> >> >> >> In article <CKqdnel_5rWYS-XUnZ2dnUVZ_v_in... at giganews.com>,
> >> >> >>         "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber... at comcast.net> writes:
>
> >> >> >> > Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> >> >> >> >> In article <0005d0dd$0$2088$c3e8... at news.astraweb.com>,
> >> >> >> >>        JF Mezei <jfmezei.spam... at vaxination.ca> writes:
> >> >> >> >>> Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>
[...]
> > I'm not familiar with Windows servers. What apps do they have? And
> > Unix? Just asking.
>
> Well, guess you would need to define the terms.  If you accept that
> in this day and age Linux is the most common form of Unix then you
> get a complete Office Suite and probably a hundred other apps all
> from the the install option on the base menu you get when you boot
> the install CD.

Linux and VMS are not sold to the same class of users. Please.

> >> >> > With VMS you can get security info right out of the manuals that come
> >> >> > with it!
>
> >> >> What manuals?  Oh, you mean on the CD.  And how does the user get at those?
> >> >> They are locked in the sysmanager desk.  :-)  And, to be quite honest, I
> >> >> have never found the VMS manuals to be all that readable or easy to
> >> >> locate things in.  Guess it depends on the style of manuals you are used
> >> >> to.
>
> >> > Well, I thought the User Manuals were pretty good (except for logical
> >> > name access modes and that stuff about SPAWN and "non-record-oriented
> >> > process-permament files (NRO PPFs)". I found the Manager manuals a
> >> > little worse and was not happy with the Programmer manuals, but only
> >> > because they one I used -- the one that described system services,
> >> > like translating a DCL symbol or logical name in Fortran or other
> >> > languauge of that level -- doesn't tell you which modules you have to
> >> > include! If you're lucky, there's an example to show you. Maybe the
> >> > other P manuals are better.
>
> >> Like I said, probably depends on what your used to.  I have never found the
> >> VMS manuals particularly usable.  I can usually figure it out, but I am
> >> much more likely to find an answer using Google than a manual.
>
> > Ah, so you were just born with knowledge such as DEFINE/SYSTEM/
> > EXECUTIVE, DEFINE/USER_MODE, EVE, NRO PPF's, symbol substitution
> > operaters, . . . C'mon, you must have read about them somewhere.
>
> Didn't say I never read the doc's.  we were talking about ease of use
> and the ease or lack thereof in finding needed info.  I have never
> found the VMS docs to be as usable as other systems docs.  And, I
> have experience with a lot more systems than just VMS and Unix.

Come to think of it, the Authorize utility is not explained well, esp.
those crazy combinations of user-id, group-id, /user=, /value=uic=,
etc. And I think the VMSFAQ is the only place it tells you how [insert
sloppy comma-splice-like transition here]

To add a missing group identifier, use an asterisk as follows: 5-15
System Management Information UAF> add/ident/value=uic=[group,*]
newgroupid

Yeah, some of it's not too good, but I think most of the U and G
manuals are good, esp. the U's.

[...]
>
>
> >> > With the VMS CD or the docs on the Net,
>
> >> On the net?  Isn't that where I said to look for Windows information?

I looked and couldn't find anything that rules out the existence of
other semicolon operators for Outlook. Acutally, both comma and
semicolon work and they both work in Windows Explorer too.

>
> > I think we're missing some context here. See below. Besides, there's a
> > difference between scouring the Net or even the MS site compared to
> > the VMS docs. Where on the MS pages can you read all the features,
> > including secret ones, about Outlook or even just its Advanced Find?
> > If there is, I'm all ears.
>
> Actually, I have seen more than enough complaines here from people who
> could not navigate (or in some cases even find) the VMS docs online.

Say what?

Crap, even I can do it. Have them give me a call and I'll do it for a
nominal fee. Please.

Using Google to search for

    vms documenation

gives as the 1st (unsponsered) hit:

HP OpenVMS systems documentation Added documentation for HP OpenVMS
Common Internet File System (CIFS) Version 1.1. ... Hewlett-Packard
welcomes your comments on the OpenVMS documentation. ...
http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/ - 47k - Cached - Similar pages

(Yes, I know: if you go to www.hp.com and use its search function, you
have to know it's called OpenVMS. Typing VMS in its search box gives
you the Ask the Wizard series [as does a lot of other VMS-related
search input.)

As far as navigating the doc site, you would add a READMEFIRST? Yeah,
I suppose the docs should be ordered better. But they're all there. I
don't have to hunt various places all over the Net and read stuff
written by who knows who. Like you said: Oh, it's on Wikipediea -- it
must be true! Non-hp and non-wikipedia sites are going to be as good?

[...]

> I have never found Windows Help to be of any value whatsoever.  So at
> least we agree on that one.  :-)

OK! Well, sometimes it helps. It's sometimes good for keyboard
shortcuts, except that sometimes it's hard to find and even when you
do it's split up among n -- where n is sometimes too large -- pages
based on category. And I often prefer topic tree to the stupid list of
FAQ's that now show up, very few of which ever answer my question.

[...]

>
> So complain to MS.  I think the fact that the online VMS docs don't
> include an equivalent to the Unix apropos command as a serious
> shortcoming.  We all have our pet peeves.  :-)

Well, there is Help Hints, and I can't remember the last time I was on
a Unix system that actually _had_ apropos.

> >> > > real books.  That's nothing new.  AT&T stopped delivering books
> >> >> with Unix at SYS V.  You bought your documentation from Prentice-
> >> >> Hall.  Same is tru of Windows.  Therea re a lot of sources for
> >> >> books if you really want them.  I guess it's a matter of keeping
> >> >> the cost down.  VMS used to ship with real books but no longer does.
> >> >> Now it comes with one set of documentation CD's which are seldom,
> >> >> if ever, available outside the datacenter.  And the one real big
> >> >> difference is there are no third party books on VMS available at
> >> >> places like Barnes & Noble.
>
> >> > OK, what book would I have to buy to have learn about the semicolon
> >> > operator; the fact that there *is* such an operator (otherwise how
> >> > would I even know to hunt it down); and other well-kept, possibly
> >> > useful, secret comands, operators, and what have you?
>
> >> Never having looked for that particular concept, I can't possibly say.
> >> But I would guess one of the O'Reilly "Nutshell" books would probably
> >> have it.

I'll check later if I have time.

>
> > You can't look for it if you don't know it exists. I simply want the
> > Help in the program to mention all such things so that I don't have to
> > go to the Net, I don't have to go to Barnes and Noble or Amazon or
> > Google or the secret barn or whatever and scour thousands of pages
> > just to find the answer to this very simple question. Why can't it
> > just be right there in the help? Is it a big deal to put the in the
> > Help?
>
> I want VMS docs to have a command like the Unix apropos command.  Is that
> too much to ask?  Is it a big deal to put it in the VMS HELP command?

Help Hints.

Yes. I think it's a bigger deal to add apropos than to put the secret
comma/semicolon operators in Help pages. I mean, you already have to
put in something about the search box. Which would you rather do?
Write apropos code or just make complete documentation which you'd
have to do anyway to solve the problem! Even apropos won't find it if
it isn't even there in the first place.

> >> >> > Even OS X has this problem. That's why you need the David Pogue books
> >> >> > (well, at least one of them). I guess home computers just don't come
> >> >> > with docs like VMS (and I'm sure other OSes) has -- stuff you can just
> >> >> > sit down and read and learn all the features about all the commands
> >> >> > (well, mostly).
>
> >> >> How do you "just sit down and read"?  I last set of actual VMS books I
> >> >> are at least 10 years old.  Now, if you can afford the tomer and paper
> >> >> I suppose you could print your own, but it wan't that long ago even
> >> >> these only came in bookreader format and could not be printed.
>
> >> > You can read the manuals on the Net. OK, it's not as comfrotable as
> >> > reading them in print.
>
> >> How do you read them on the net when your are trying to get your VMS
> >> system set up and all you have is a VT420 as  a terminal?  Or did we
> >> forget that by default VMS has no user applications?  In any event,
> >> if your resource for VMS is the net, why can't you accept the same for
> >> Windows or even Unix?
>
> > DECwindows.
>
> Wow, I have never seen DECWindows runnng on a VT420 on the console port.
> How do I get it started?

Use the CD.

> > So it has no "user apps". So what? Does Unix? (just asking, and no, I
> > don't consider awk to be an app any more than VMS's SORT.) So get some
> > frickin' apps!
>
> Actually, modern Unix does.

I'm all ears. Please do tell (and not Linux -- VMS and Linux are like
cars and trucks: they're for different classes of users/customers).
Just asking. I'm not saying they DON'T come with apps. I just don't
know what they may be.

> > Because what's on the Net for Windows doesn't do what I ask. I just
> > did a quick look and found a stupid slide show I don't know how to run
> > without downloading stuff. And clicking on "search options" in the
> > text that was on that page gave me an ad for stock options. There's
> > quality for ya!
>
> You must not use the web much.

Please illustrate just how I would go about looking for secret
operators I don't even know exist? During writing this I actually
tried to find a page that just listed the semicolon operator and found
one but it didn't mention any other operators. So there might still be
some. In fact, it appeard to be the _only_ one.

OK, I just did this Google search:

"secret operators" (Outlook OR "Windows Explorer")

and got

groups.google.com/group/comp.os.vms/msg/82a1cab28c36308e - 54k -

:-)

I resent having to use Google for something that should be in the
manual. Would you like a car with none of the controls or warning
lights labeled? Did a light came up on your dashboard and it doesn't
say what the problem is? Well, Google it! Performing brain surgery and
you never learned how to do it? Just bring your laptop to the
Operating Room and Google it! No problem. (I don't mean to be
sarcastic; I'm just trying to illustrate my point and my writing
skills don't permit me to do it otherwise in a reasonable amount of
time.)

>
> >                 I want something to read. I don't want a stupid slide
> > show to sit through (after downloading who knows what stupid viewer/
> > flash/quicktime/realplayer apps), or a DVD, or a cassette tape, or
> > movie, forums to weed through, clueless support people (I think there
> > are more of them than there are guitarists!), etc. Just put it in the
> > frickin' help and be done with it so I can look it up quickly and get
> > on with life.
>
> Yeah, and I usually say the same thing about VMS.  And get most of
> myreally useful  answers right here.

That's not the same thing. You're looking for a specific thing and I
want to browse the whole shebang to see what cool things are
available. You're asking, "How do I do such and such" and I'm asking,
"Please tell me all about such and such." Give me a manual, I'll read
it, and if I have any questions, I'll check the FAQ and if needed I'll
ask here.

Okay, I'll try it:

Can someone please tell me all the features of the SORT utility? or
the COPY comand? Hell, please tell me about all the DCL commands and
what they all do and all their options. Thanks.

I don't think it will work. It's not the same. (I'm not trying to be
sarcastic; I'm just trying to illustrate my point and don't have the
time or perhaps even the skills to do it otherhow. Please excuse me.)

> > Another site tells me about this 400-page book on Outlook I can buy.
> > 400 pages? Yeah, I'm going to sit down and read 400 pages just for
> > Outlook. And buy it no less, for one stinking app! And then there's
> > the triple-yellow-sticker problem. No thanks.
>
> So, don't use Windows.  Problem solved.

That's why I recently bought a Mac.

>
>
>
> >> >                        But I actually did this once at a physics lab I
> >> > was visiting. I had to copy a whole bunch of tapes. And each took
> >> > about 10 min. So I had nothing to do between tapes. So, to take
> >> > advantage of this waiting time I read everything that looked useful or
> >> > interesting in the DCL dictionary and the EDT reference manual. I made
> >> > a big step forward that day.
>
> >> And considering how ulikely I would be to actually need any of that
> >> information I would have considered it a waste of time.  If I need
> >> to read to kill time Tom Clancy is much more useful.
>
> > For me it was very useful as I was a beginner, newbie, or what have
> > you. It seemed that everyone else in the physics group knew a lot more
> > than I did. So I wanted to catch up. Life was better.
>
> I tend to read the information I need and not just information that
> may or may not prove useful at some remote point in the future.

Actually, I did say that I only read the parts that appeared
interesting and/or useful.

But then again, what about information that you miss that would help
you do what you need to do much more eficiently and easily than if you
just "read what you need"? Maybe there's some tool you don't know
about that will do it easier than if you just find some other tool
because that's all you need?

There are many a time where it's a good idea to learn stuff that you
might need: school, your car manual, preparation for cyberattacks that
may not happen so you wouldn't need to know about it, etc.

AEF