[Info-vax] "Shanghai Stock Exchange" and OpenVMS

[Bill Gunshannon]

In article <342d9c74-0b26-4c4b-9dd2-527d08958570 at o36g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,
	AEF <spamsink2001 at yahoo.com> writes:
> On Jan 24, 3:59 pm, billg... at cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>> In article <5288d49e-e43a-463e-a02c-bffcf1393... at o4g2000pra.googlegroups.com>,
>>         AEF <spamsink2... at yahoo.com> writes:
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Jan 23, 9:38 am, billg... at cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>> >> In article <05b548fd-8d1f-48c9-80c4-777bf5f6c... at q35g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>,
>> >>         AEF <spamsink2... at yahoo.com> writes:
>>
>> >> > On Jan 22, 8:41 pm, billg... at cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>> >> >> In article <abd32391-46d6-49e4-aa1c-58d74dcc7... at p2g2000prn.googlegroups.com>,
>> >> >>         AEF <spamsink2... at yahoo.com> writes:
>> >> >> > On Jan 22, 3:31 pm, billg... at cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>> >> >> >> In article <CKqdnel_5rWYS-XUnZ2dnUVZ_v_in... at giganews.com>,
>> >> >> >>         "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber... at comcast.net> writes:
>>
>> >> >> >> > Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> In article <0005d0dd$0$2088$c3e8... at news.astraweb.com>,
>> >> >> >> >>        JF Mezei <jfmezei.spam... at vaxination.ca> writes:
>> >> >> >> >>> Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>>
> [...]
>> > I'm not familiar with Windows servers. What apps do they have? And
>> > Unix? Just asking.
>>
>> Well, guess you would need to define the terms.  If you accept that
>> in this day and age Linux is the most common form of Unix then you
>> get a complete Office Suite and probably a hundred other apps all
>> from the the install option on the base menu you get when you boot
>> the install CD.
> 
> Linux and VMS are not sold to the same class of users. Please.

You're right.  Linux isn't "sold" to anyone.  Oh wait, lately, neither is VMS.
:-)

> 
>> >> >> > With VMS you can get security info right out of the manuals that come
>> >> >> > with it!
>>
>> >> >> What manuals?  Oh, you mean on the CD.  And how does the user get at those?
>> >> >> They are locked in the sysmanager desk.  :-)  And, to be quite honest, I
>> >> >> have never found the VMS manuals to be all that readable or easy to
>> >> >> locate things in.  Guess it depends on the style of manuals you are used
>> >> >> to.
>>
>> >> > Well, I thought the User Manuals were pretty good (except for logical
>> >> > name access modes and that stuff about SPAWN and "non-record-oriented
>> >> > process-permament files (NRO PPFs)". I found the Manager manuals a
>> >> > little worse and was not happy with the Programmer manuals, but only
>> >> > because they one I used -- the one that described system services,
>> >> > like translating a DCL symbol or logical name in Fortran or other
>> >> > languauge of that level -- doesn't tell you which modules you have to
>> >> > include! If you're lucky, there's an example to show you. Maybe the
>> >> > other P manuals are better.
>>
>> >> Like I said, probably depends on what your used to.  I have never found the
>> >> VMS manuals particularly usable.  I can usually figure it out, but I am
>> >> much more likely to find an answer using Google than a manual.
>>
>> > Ah, so you were just born with knowledge such as DEFINE/SYSTEM/
>> > EXECUTIVE, DEFINE/USER_MODE, EVE, NRO PPF's, symbol substitution
>> > operaters, . . . C'mon, you must have read about them somewhere.
>>
>> Didn't say I never read the doc's.  we were talking about ease of use
>> and the ease or lack thereof in finding needed info.  I have never
>> found the VMS docs to be as usable as other systems docs.  And, I
>> have experience with a lot more systems than just VMS and Unix.
> 
> Come to think of it, the Authorize utility is not explained well, esp.
> those crazy combinations of user-id, group-id, /user=, /value=uic=,
> etc. And I think the VMSFAQ is the only place it tells you how [insert
> sloppy comma-splice-like transition here]
> 
> To add a missing group identifier, use an asterisk as follows: 5-15
> System Management Information UAF> add/ident/value=uic=[group,*]
> newgroupid
> 
> Yeah, some of it's not too good, but I think most of the U and G
> manuals are good, esp. the U's.

Like beauty, good is in the eye of the beholder.

> 
> [...]
>>
>>
>> >> > With the VMS CD or the docs on the Net,
>>
>> >> On the net?  Isn't that where I said to look for Windows information?
> 
> I looked and couldn't find anything that rules out the existence of
> other semicolon operators for Outlook. Acutally, both comma and
> semicolon work and they both work in Windows Explorer too.

OK.

> 
>>
>> > I think we're missing some context here. See below. Besides, there's a
>> > difference between scouring the Net or even the MS site compared to
>> > the VMS docs. Where on the MS pages can you read all the features,
>> > including secret ones, about Outlook or even just its Advanced Find?
>> > If there is, I'm all ears.
>>
>> Actually, I have seen more than enough complaines here from people who
>> could not navigate (or in some cases even find) the VMS docs online.
> 
> Say what?
> 
> Crap, even I can do it. Have them give me a call and I'll do it for a
> nominal fee. Please.

If you really care. search the archives.  You will find many people
(usually those with limited previous VMS experience) who have asked
questions here stating up from that they could not find it in the docs.
I know, because I have done it myself.

> 
> Using Google to search for
> 
>     vms documenation
> 
> gives as the 1st (unsponsered) hit:
> 
> HP OpenVMS systems documentation Added documentation for HP OpenVMS
> Common Internet File System (CIFS) Version 1.1. ... Hewlett-Packard
> welcomes your comments on the OpenVMS documentation. ...
> http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/ - 47k - Cached - Similar pages
> 
> (Yes, I know: if you go to www.hp.com and use its search function, you
> have to know it's called OpenVMS. Typing VMS in its search box gives
> you the Ask the Wizard series [as does a lot of other VMS-related
> search input.)
> 
> As far as navigating the doc site, you would add a READMEFIRST? Yeah,
> I suppose the docs should be ordered better. But they're all there. I
> don't have to hunt various places all over the Net and read stuff
> written by who knows who. Like you said: Oh, it's on Wikipediea -- it
> must be true! Non-hp and non-wikipedia sites are going to be as good?

Frequently the best answer comes from someone who has already done it.

> 
> [...]
> 
>> I have never found Windows Help to be of any value whatsoever.  So at
>> least we agree on that one.  :-)
> 
> OK! Well, sometimes it helps. It's sometimes good for keyboard
> shortcuts, except that sometimes it's hard to find and even when you
> do it's split up among n -- where n is sometimes too large -- pages
> based on category. And I often prefer topic tree to the stupid list of
> FAQ's that now show up, very few of which ever answer my question.
> 
> [...]
> 
>>
>> So complain to MS.  I think the fact that the online VMS docs don't
>> include an equivalent to the Unix apropos command as a serious
>> shortcoming.  We all have our pet peeves.  :-)
> 
> Well, there is Help Hints, and I can't remember the last time I was on
> a Unix system that actually _had_ apropos.

Huh?  I can't remember one that didn't.  Oh wait, anything runnng real
AT&T SYS V.  They didn't provide any manuals. expecting you to buy paper
one's from Prentice-Hall.  No man pages, no apropos. And we all know how
well AT&T did in the IT business.  :-)

So, what current version of Unix are you using that does not support the
apropos or "man -k" command?  (Hint: they are the exact same command!)

> 
>> >> > > real books.  That's nothing new.  AT&T stopped delivering books
>> >> >> with Unix at SYS V.  You bought your documentation from Prentice-
>> >> >> Hall.  Same is tru of Windows.  Therea re a lot of sources for
>> >> >> books if you really want them.  I guess it's a matter of keeping
>> >> >> the cost down.  VMS used to ship with real books but no longer does.
>> >> >> Now it comes with one set of documentation CD's which are seldom,
>> >> >> if ever, available outside the datacenter.  And the one real big
>> >> >> difference is there are no third party books on VMS available at
>> >> >> places like Barnes & Noble.
>>
>> >> > OK, what book would I have to buy to have learn about the semicolon
>> >> > operator; the fact that there *is* such an operator (otherwise how
>> >> > would I even know to hunt it down); and other well-kept, possibly
>> >> > useful, secret comands, operators, and what have you?
>>
>> >> Never having looked for that particular concept, I can't possibly say.
>> >> But I would guess one of the O'Reilly "Nutshell" books would probably
>> >> have it.
> 
> I'll check later if I have time.
> 
>>
>> > You can't look for it if you don't know it exists. I simply want the
>> > Help in the program to mention all such things so that I don't have to
>> > go to the Net, I don't have to go to Barnes and Noble or Amazon or
>> > Google or the secret barn or whatever and scour thousands of pages
>> > just to find the answer to this very simple question. Why can't it
>> > just be right there in the help? Is it a big deal to put the in the
>> > Help?
>>
>> I want VMS docs to have a command like the Unix apropos command.  Is that
>> too much to ask?  Is it a big deal to put it in the VMS HELP command?
> 
> Help Hints.
> 
> Yes. I think it's a bigger deal to add apropos than to put the secret
> comma/semicolon operators in Help pages. I mean, you already have to
> put in something about the search box. Which would you rather do?
> Write apropos code or just make complete documentation which you'd
> have to do anyway to solve the problem! Even apropos won't find it if
> it isn't even there in the first place.

But if you had all the docs online, it might be there.  And apropos would
then find it and point you at the place you needed to look.

> 
>> >> >> > Even OS X has this problem. That's why you need the David Pogue books
>> >> >> > (well, at least one of them). I guess home computers just don't come
>> >> >> > with docs like VMS (and I'm sure other OSes) has -- stuff you can just
>> >> >> > sit down and read and learn all the features about all the commands
>> >> >> > (well, mostly).
>>
>> >> >> How do you "just sit down and read"?  I last set of actual VMS books I
>> >> >> are at least 10 years old.  Now, if you can afford the tomer and paper
>> >> >> I suppose you could print your own, but it wan't that long ago even
>> >> >> these only came in bookreader format and could not be printed.
>>
>> >> > You can read the manuals on the Net. OK, it's not as comfrotable as
>> >> > reading them in print.
>>
>> >> How do you read them on the net when your are trying to get your VMS
>> >> system set up and all you have is a VT420 as  a terminal?  Or did we
>> >> forget that by default VMS has no user applications?  In any event,
>> >> if your resource for VMS is the net, why can't you accept the same for
>> >> Windows or even Unix?
>>
>> > DECwindows.
>>
>> Wow, I have never seen DECWindows runnng on a VT420 on the console port.
>> How do I get it started?
> 
> Use the CD.

The CD is going to start DECWindows on my VT420 running on the console
port?  I am uterly amazed.

> 
>> > So it has no "user apps". So what? Does Unix? (just asking, and no, I
>> > don't consider awk to be an app any more than VMS's SORT.) So get some
>> > frickin' apps!
>>
>> Actually, modern Unix does.
> 
> I'm all ears. Please do tell (and not Linux -- VMS and Linux are like
> cars and trucks: they're for different classes of users/customers).
> Just asking. I'm not saying they DON'T come with apps. I just don't
> know what they may be.

So, if you eliminte Linux just what do you consider Unix today?  Most
of the proprietary Unices have gone the same way VMS is headed.  As for
target market, Linux is being used to fill the functions of VMS every
day.  You may think it isn't, but reality is different.  You can even
run your Oracle backend on Linux if you want.  Linux is capable of and
is targeting every level, from desktop to datacenter.  There was a time
when VMS did the same.

> 
>> > Because what's on the Net for Windows doesn't do what I ask. I just
>> > did a quick look and found a stupid slide show I don't know how to run
>> > without downloading stuff. And clicking on "search options" in the
>> > text that was on that page gave me an ad for stock options. There's
>> > quality for ya!
>>
>> You must not use the web much.
> 
> Please illustrate just how I would go about looking for secret
> operators I don't even know exist? 

Why would you look for something you don't know exists?  Do you also
spend your freetime looking for yeti and sasquatch?  Can't tell you
where to find them either.

>                                     During writing this I actually
> tried to find a page that just listed the semicolon operator and found
> one but it didn't mention any other operators. So there might still be
> some. In fact, it appeard to be the _only_ one.

And, there might be a reason why it is undocumented, too.  

> 
> OK, I just did this Google search:
> 
> "secret operators" (Outlook OR "Windows Explorer")

Oh yeah, that's really gonna work.

> 
> and got
> 
> groups.google.com/group/comp.os.vms/msg/82a1cab28c36308e - 54k -
> 
>:-)

What were you really expecting?  Do you think MS would call them "secret"
operators.

> 
> I resent having to use Google for something that should be in the
> manual. Would you like a car with none of the controls or warning
> lights labeled? 

Just bought a truck.  Nothing is really "labeled".  funny, meaningless
symbols on most of the switches.  Didn't come with an owner's manual.
And cost a hell of a lot more than a copy of Windows.  I am sure they
could provide extensive manuals, at a cost.  But then, I am also sure
that market research (remember, this isn't VMS, they have a marketing
department) has shown that people didn't want books if they had to pay
for them.

>                 Did a light came up on your dashboard and it doesn't
> say what the problem is? 

Not on my truck.  But my Mazda did it all the time.  I had to buy a
$200 device to tell me what the light meant.  And a book to tell me
what the code the device reports really means.

>                          Well, Google it! 

Did that, until I decided it was enough of a problem that I bought the
device.

>                                             Performing brain surgery and
> you never learned how to do it? Just bring your laptop to the
> Operating Room and Google it! No problem. (I don't mean to be
> sarcastic; I'm just trying to illustrate my point and my writing
> skills don't permit me to do it otherwise in a reasonable amount of
> time.)

You probably should give up the IT business.  If you find problems like this
insurmountable you need a much simpler job. Or the ulcers and stress are going
to kill ya.  :-)

> 
>>
>> >                 I want something to read. I don't want a stupid slide
>> > show to sit through (after downloading who knows what stupid viewer/
>> > flash/quicktime/realplayer apps), or a DVD, or a cassette tape, or
>> > movie, forums to weed through, clueless support people (I think there
>> > are more of them than there are guitarists!), etc. Just put it in the
>> > frickin' help and be done with it so I can look it up quickly and get
>> > on with life.
>>
>> Yeah, and I usually say the same thing about VMS.  And get most of
>> myreally useful  answers right here.
> 
> That's not the same thing. You're looking for a specific thing and I
> want to browse the whole shebang to see what cool things are
> available. You're asking, "How do I do such and such" and I'm asking,
> "Please tell me all about such and such." Give me a manual, I'll read
> it, and if I have any questions, I'll check the FAQ and if needed I'll
> ask here.

Too much time on your hands.  I can think of a lot of things better to 
do than try to learn what MS chose not to document.  Like playing golf.

> 
> Okay, I'll try it:
> 
> Can someone please tell me all the features of the SORT utility? or
> the COPY comand? Hell, please tell me about all the DCL commands and
> what they all do and all their options. Thanks.

No, they will tell you RTFM.  Oh wait, if they are just VMS "users" they
dont have TFM.  And most likely don't know where to find it, except maybe
using Google.  :-)

> 
> I don't think it will work. It's not the same. (I'm not trying to be
> sarcastic; I'm just trying to illustrate my point and don't have the
> time or perhaps even the skills to do it otherhow. Please excuse me.)
> 
>> > Another site tells me about this 400-page book on Outlook I can buy.
>> > 400 pages? Yeah, I'm going to sit down and read 400 pages just for
>> > Outlook. And buy it no less, for one stinking app! And then there's
>> > the triple-yellow-sticker problem. No thanks.
>>
>> So, don't use Windows.  Problem solved.
> 
> That's why I recently bought a Mac.

Why not VMS?  I thought it was the perfect OS for everyone and everything?
You just spent a a portion of this tirade complaining about Unix and then
tell us that is what you bought.  Go figure.

> 
>>
>>
>>
>> >> >                        But I actually did this once at a physics lab I
>> >> > was visiting. I had to copy a whole bunch of tapes. And each took
>> >> > about 10 min. So I had nothing to do between tapes. So, to take
>> >> > advantage of this waiting time I read everything that looked useful or
>> >> > interesting in the DCL dictionary and the EDT reference manual. I made
>> >> > a big step forward that day.
>>
>> >> And considering how ulikely I would be to actually need any of that
>> >> information I would have considered it a waste of time.  If I need
>> >> to read to kill time Tom Clancy is much more useful.
>>
>> > For me it was very useful as I was a beginner, newbie, or what have
>> > you. It seemed that everyone else in the physics group knew a lot more
>> > than I did. So I wanted to catch up. Life was better.
>>
>> I tend to read the information I need and not just information that
>> may or may not prove useful at some remote point in the future.
> 
> Actually, I did say that I only read the parts that appeared
> interesting and/or useful.

So, how is something "secret" "interesting and/or useful"?  If it was
secret, how would you even know it existed?  Although I think un-documented
is a beter description that secret.  And un-documented things are
usually un-documented for a reason.

> 
> But then again, what about information that you miss that would help
> you do what you need to do much more eficiently and easily than if you
> just "read what you need"? Maybe there's some tool you don't know
> about that will do it easier than if you just find some other tool
> because that's all you need?

You ask experts.  And if it sounds useful you do further research.
That's what separates experts and neophytes.

> 
> There are many a time where it's a good idea to learn stuff that you
> might need: school, your car manual, preparation for cyberattacks that
> may not happen so you wouldn't need to know about it, etc.

That may be true, but I probably don't need to know anything that I have
never even heard of.  If I hear about it and think it might be useful, I
will research it.  For example:  I now know there are some undocumented
features of Windows Advanced Search.  Guess what, I am not going to do
any research on this because I don't use Windows Advanced Search and don't
anticipate ever needing it. I have better (non-Windows) tools fof doing
that job.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999 at cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>