[Info-vax] "Shanghai Stock Exchange" and OpenVMS

[AEF]

On Jan 26, 10:16 am, billg... at cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> In article <342d9c74-0b26-4c4b-9dd2-527d08958... at o36g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,
>         AEF <spamsink2... at yahoo.com> writes:
>
> > On Jan 24, 3:59 pm, billg... at cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> >> In article <5288d49e-e43a-463e-a02c-bffcf1393... at o4g2000pra.googlegroups.com>,
> >>         AEF <spamsink2... at yahoo.com> writes:
>
> >> > On Jan 23, 9:38 am, billg... at cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> >> >> In article <05b548fd-8d1f-48c9-80c4-777bf5f6c... at q35g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>,
> >> >>         AEF <spamsink2... at yahoo.com> writes:
>
> >> >> > On Jan 22, 8:41 pm, billg... at cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> >> >> >> In article <abd32391-46d6-49e4-aa1c-58d74dcc7... at p2g2000prn.googlegroups.com>,
> >> >> >>         AEF <spamsink2... at yahoo.com> writes:
> >> >> >> > On Jan 22, 3:31 pm, billg... at cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> >> >> >> >> In article <CKqdnel_5rWYS-XUnZ2dnUVZ_v_in... at giganews.com>,
> >> >> >> >>         "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber... at comcast.net> writes:
>
> >> >> >> >> > Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >> In article <0005d0dd$0$2088$c3e8... at news.astraweb.com>,
> >> >> >> >> >>        JF Mezei <jfmezei.spam... at vaxination.ca> writes:
> >> >> >> >> >>> Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>
> > [...]
> >> > I'm not familiar with Windows servers. What apps do they have? And
> >> > Unix? Just asking.
             ^^^^^^^^^^^^ ! for reference for one of my answers below.

>
[...]

> >> > I think we're missing some context here. See below. Besides, there's a
> >> > difference between scouring the Net or even the MS site compared to
> >> > the VMS docs. Where on the MS pages can you read all the features,
> >> > including secret ones, about Outlook or even just its Advanced Find?
> >> > If there is, I'm all ears.
>
> >> Actually, I have seen more than enough complaines here from people who
> >> could not navigate (or in some cases even find) the VMS docs online.
>
> > Say what?
>
> > Crap, even I can do it. Have them give me a call and I'll do it for a
> > nominal fee. Please.
>
> If you really care. search the archives.  You will find many people
> (usually those with limited previous VMS experience) who have asked
> questions here stating up from that they could not find it in the docs.
> I know, because I have done it myself.

That's for help with a specific problem. I'm talking about just
sitting down and learning all about the OS. A newbie, e.g., should
read the User's Manual to start. No, that's not obvious, but it will
be a lot better than posting here asking all sorts of things that are
in that manual. You have to crawl before you learn to walk.

>
>
>
> > Using Google to search for
>
> >     vms documenation
>
> > gives as the 1st (unsponsered) hit:
>
> > HP OpenVMS systems documentation Added documentation for HP OpenVMS
> > Common Internet File System (CIFS) Version 1.1. ... Hewlett-Packard
> > welcomes your comments on the OpenVMS documentation. ...
> >http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/- 47k - Cached - Similar pages
>
> > (Yes, I know: if you go towww.hp.comand use its search function, you
> > have to know it's called OpenVMS. Typing VMS in its search box gives
> > you the Ask the Wizard series [as does a lot of other VMS-related
> > search input.)
>
> > As far as navigating the doc site, you would add a READMEFIRST? Yeah,
> > I suppose the docs should be ordered better. But they're all there. I
> > don't have to hunt various places all over the Net and read stuff
> > written by who knows who. Like you said: Oh, it's on Wikipediea -- it
> > must be true! Non-hp and non-wikipedia sites are going to be as good?
>
> Frequently the best answer comes from someone who has already done it.

And frequently those answers are RTFM, but not this time! And who has
already done this search for similar secret operators and how to find
him?

>
>
>
> > [...]
>
[...]

>
> > [...]
>
> >> So complain to MS.  I think the fact that the online VMS docs don't
> >> include an equivalent to the Unix apropos command as a serious
> >> shortcoming.  We all have our pet peeves.  :-)
>
> > Well, there is Help Hints, and I can't remember the last time I was on
> > a Unix system that actually _had_ apropos.
>
> Huh?  I can't remember one that didn't.  Oh wait, anything runnng real
> AT&T SYS V.  They didn't provide any manuals. expecting you to buy paper
> one's from Prentice-Hall.  No man pages, no apropos. And we all know how
> well AT&T did in the IT business.  :-)
>
> So, what current version of Unix are you using that does not support the
> apropos or "man -k" command?  (Hint: they are the exact same command!)

bash-3.00$ apropos
apropos what?
bash-3.00$ aspopos copy
bash: aspopos: command not found
bash-3.00$ man -k
usage:  man [-] [-adFlrt] [-M path] [-T macro-package ] [ -s section ]
name ...
        man [-M path] -k keyword ...
        man [-M path] -f file ...
bash-3.00$ man -k copy
/usr/share/man/windex: No such file or directory
bash-3.00$

OK, how do I learn how to copy? How do I find out the version? I know
it's Solaris something, probably 8.


> >> >> > > real books.  That's nothing new.  AT&T stopped delivering books
> >> >> >> with Unix at SYS V.  You bought your documentation from Prentice-
> >> >> >> Hall.  Same is tru of Windows.  Therea re a lot of sources for
> >> >> >> books if you really want them.  I guess it's a matter of keeping
> >> >> >> the cost down.  VMS used to ship with real books but no longer does.
> >> >> >> Now it comes with one set of documentation CD's which are seldom,
> >> >> >> if ever, available outside the datacenter.  And the one real big
> >> >> >> difference is there are no third party books on VMS available at
> >> >> >> places like Barnes & Noble.
>
> >> >> > OK, what book would I have to buy to have learn about the semicolon
> >> >> > operator; the fact that there *is* such an operator (otherwise how
> >> >> > would I even know to hunt it down); and other well-kept, possibly
> >> >> > useful, secret comands, operators, and what have you?
>
> >> >> Never having looked for that particular concept, I can't possibly say.
> >> >> But I would guess one of the O'Reilly "Nutshell" books would probably
> >> >> have it.
>
> > I'll check later if I have time.
>
> >> > You can't look for it if you don't know it exists. I simply want the
> >> > Help in the program to mention all such things so that I don't have to
> >> > go to the Net, I don't have to go to Barnes and Noble or Amazon or
> >> > Google or the secret barn or whatever and scour thousands of pages
> >> > just to find the answer to this very simple question. Why can't it
> >> > just be right there in the help? Is it a big deal to put the in the
> >> > Help?
>
> >> I want VMS docs to have a command like the Unix apropos command.  Is that
> >> too much to ask?  Is it a big deal to put it in the VMS HELP command?
>
> > Help Hints.
>
> > Yes. I think it's a bigger deal to add apropos than to put the secret
> > comma/semicolon operators in Help pages. I mean, you already have to
> > put in something about the search box. Which would you rather do?
> > Write apropos code or just make complete documentation which you'd
> > have to do anyway to solve the problem! Even apropos won't find it if
> > it isn't even there in the first place.
>
> But if you had all the docs online, it might be there.  And apropos would
> then find it and point you at the place you needed to look.

Find what, the secret operators that I don't even know exist? How
would that work?

$ apropos 'secret operators that could be very useful, but that I
don't even know exist' #?

>
>
>
> >> >> >> > Even OS X has this problem. That's why you need the David Pogue books
> >> >> >> > (well, at least one of them). I guess home computers just don't come
> >> >> >> > with docs like VMS (and I'm sure other OSes) has -- stuff you can just
> >> >> >> > sit down and read and learn all the features about all the commands
> >> >> >> > (well, mostly).
>
> >> >> >> How do you "just sit down and read"?  I last set of actual VMS books I
> >> >> >> are at least 10 years old.  Now, if you can afford the tomer and paper
> >> >> >> I suppose you could print your own, but it wan't that long ago even
> >> >> >> these only came in bookreader format and could not be printed.
>
> >> >> > You can read the manuals on the Net. OK, it's not as comfrotable as
> >> >> > reading them in print.
>
> >> >> How do you read them on the net when your are trying to get your VMS
> >> >> system set up and all you have is a VT420 as  a terminal?  Or did we
> >> >> forget that by default VMS has no user applications?  In any event,
> >> >> if your resource for VMS is the net, why can't you accept the same for
> >> >> Windows or even Unix?

I'm NOT trying to set up my VMS system. I'm the user looking for
similar secret operators, similar to the undocumented one I already
stumbled upon. So this is not relevant. If the system really does come
like that, contact whom you bought it from for support.

>
> >> > DECwindows.
>
> >> Wow, I have never seen DECWindows runnng on a VT420 on the console port.
> >> How do I get it started?
>
> > Use the CD.
>
> The CD is going to start DECWindows on my VT420 running on the console
> port?  I am uterly amazed.

You changed the subject to bringing up a VMS system from scratch. I've
never done that. Perhaps you have to by a PC or some books or look on
the Internet, most of which you already think are okay. Or maybe it
comes with the OS and DECwindows loaded; I don't even know.
Regardless, you changed the subject so it's not even relevant.

>
>
>
> >> > So it has no "user apps". So what? Does Unix? (just asking, and no, I
> >> > don't consider awk to be an app any more than VMS's SORT.) So get some
> >> > frickin' apps!
>
> >> Actually, modern Unix does.
>
> > I'm all ears. Please do tell (and not Linux -- VMS and Linux are like
> > cars and trucks: they're for different classes of users/customers).
> > Just asking. I'm not saying they DON'T come with apps. I just don't
> > know what they may be.
>
> So, if you eliminte Linux just what do you consider Unix today?  Most
> of the proprietary Unices have gone the same way VMS is headed.  As for
> target market, Linux is being used to fill the functions of VMS every
> day.  You may think it isn't, but reality is different.  You can even
> run your Oracle backend on Linux if you want.  Linux is capable of and
> is targeting every level, from desktop to datacenter.  There was a time
> when VMS did the same.

Didn't you once (or probably many times) say that Linux was a toy that
production servers shouldn't run? Or something even more insulting
than that? So I would naturally think that if you even considered
Linux to be okay to use, it would be a client, not a server, so to
speak.

>
>
>
> >> > Because what's on the Net for Windows doesn't do what I ask. I just
> >> > did a quick look and found a stupid slide show I don't know how to run
> >> > without downloading stuff. And clicking on "search options" in the
> >> > text that was on that page gave me an ad for stock options. There's
> >> > quality for ya!
>
> >> You must not use the web much.
>
> > Please illustrate just how I would go about looking for secret
> > operators I don't even know exist?
>
> Why would you look for something you don't know exists?  Do you also
> spend your freetime looking for yeti and sasquatch?  Can't tell you
> where to find them either.

It's called learning. Most children do exactly that in school.
Scientists do it all the time. We wouldn't be having this conversation
if it weren't for people looking for something they don't know exists.
Clyde Tombaugh found Pluto not knowing it exists. Neptune was
discovered not knowing it exists, but was strongly suggested to exist
based on unaccounted for perturbation of Uranus's orbit. Quantum
mechanics was "discovered", well the LAWS of QM were discovered, by
people who didn't know they exist, at least not initially. But nature
doesn't document itself. That's what makes scientific research hard
work. I expect better from a product I purchase.

Did you know that apropos exists? How did you find out it exists?



>
> >                                     During writing this I actually
> > tried to find a page that just listed the semicolon operator and found
> > one but it didn't mention any other operators. So there might still be
> > some. In fact, it appeard to be the _only_ one.
>
> And, there might be a reason why it is undocumented, too.

Yes, I can think of several: laziness, incompetence, error, rushing,
losing your edit, etc.

>
>
>
> > OK, I just did this Google search:
>
> > "secret operators" (Outlook OR "Windows Explorer")
>
> Oh yeah, that's really gonna work.

That was my point. What would you suggest?

>
>
>
> > and got
>
> > groups.google.com/group/comp.os.vms/msg/82a1cab28c36308e - 54k -
>
> >:-)
>
> What were you really expecting?  Do you think MS would call them "secret"
> operators.

You missed the smiley and the point.

>
>
>
> > I resent having to use Google for something that should be in the
> > manual. Would you like a car with none of the controls or warning
> > lights labeled?
>
> Just bought a truck.  Nothing is really "labeled".  funny, meaningless
> symbols on most of the switches.

Which you can look up in the manual.

> Didn't come with an owner's manual.

You got ripped off. Google it!

> And cost a hell of a lot more than a copy of Windows.  I am sure they
> could provide extensive manuals, at a cost.  But then, I am also sure

Extensive? It's a truck, not an OS.

> that market research (remember, this isn't VMS, they have a marketing
> department) has shown that people didn't want books if they had to pay
> for them.

So what makes "people" so smart? Hey, that want Windows! Nuf said.

>
> >                 Did a light came up on your dashboard and it doesn't
> > say what the problem is?
>
> Not on my truck.  But my Mazda did it all the time.  I had to buy a
> $200 device to tell me what the light meant.  And a book to tell me
> what the code the device reports really means.
>
> >                          Well, Google it!
>
> Did that, until I decided it was enough of a problem that I bought the
> device.

I think you just made my point.

>
> >                                             Performing brain surgery and
> > you never learned how to do it? Just bring your laptop to the
> > Operating Room and Google it! No problem. (I don't mean to be
> > sarcastic; I'm just trying to illustrate my point and my writing
> > skills don't permit me to do it otherwise in a reasonable amount of
> > time.)
>
> You probably should give up the IT business.  If you find problems like this
> insurmountable you need a much simpler job. Or the ulcers and stress are going
> to kill ya.  :-)

I wish I could take all the developers, chain them to my desk, and
every time I come across a problem due to a poor design decision,
stick the monitor in their faces and say: "Why the hell did you make
it like this?" I'd keep them pretty busy!

>
>
>
> >> >                 I want something to read. I don't want a stupid slide
> >> > show to sit through (after downloading who knows what stupid viewer/
> >> > flash/quicktime/realplayer apps), or a DVD, or a cassette tape, or
> >> > movie, forums to weed through, clueless support people (I think there
> >> > are more of them than there are guitarists!), etc. Just put it in the
> >> > frickin' help and be done with it so I can look it up quickly and get
> >> > on with life.
>
> >> Yeah, and I usually say the same thing about VMS.  And get most of
> >> myreally useful  answers right here.
>
> > That's not the same thing. You're looking for a specific thing and I
> > want to browse the whole shebang to see what cool things are
> > available. You're asking, "How do I do such and such" and I'm asking,
> > "Please tell me all about such and such." Give me a manual, I'll read
> > it, and if I have any questions, I'll check the FAQ and if needed I'll
> > ask here.
>
> Too much time on your hands.  I can think of a lot of things better to
> do than try to learn what MS chose not to document.  Like playing golf.

I'm not. I'm just expressing the fact that I'm annoyed that they don't
docuement something like this and that I might be missing something
else useful in the same vein.

>
>
>
> > Okay, I'll try it:
>
> > Can someone please tell me all the features of the SORT utility? or
> > the COPY comand? Hell, please tell me about all the DCL commands and
> > what they all do and all their options. Thanks.
>
> No, they will tell you RTFM.  Oh wait, if they are just VMS "users" they
> dont have TFM.  And most likely don't know where to find it, except maybe
> using Google.  :-)

Google: VMS Documentation

works quite well. So tell them were the manual is and THEN say RTFM.
Or tell them UG and RTFM.

>
>
>
> > I don't think it will work. It's not the same. (I'm not trying to be
> > sarcastic; I'm just trying to illustrate my point and don't have the
> > time or perhaps even the skills to do it otherhow. Please excuse me.)
>
> >> > Another site tells me about this 400-page book on Outlook I can buy.
> >> > 400 pages? Yeah, I'm going to sit down and read 400 pages just for
> >> > Outlook. And buy it no less, for one stinking app! And then there's
> >> > the triple-yellow-sticker problem. No thanks.
>
> >> So, don't use Windows.  Problem solved.
>
> > That's why I recently bought a Mac.
>
> Why not VMS?  I thought it was the perfect OS for everyone and everything?
> You just spent a a portion of this tirade complaining about Unix and then
> tell us that is what you bought.  Go figure.

I never said that.

I did not complain about Unix. I asked what apps it has. See the
^^^^^^^^^ near the beginning of this post.


>
>
>
> >> >> >                        But I actually did this once at a physics lab I
> >> >> > was visiting. I had to copy a whole bunch of tapes. And each took
> >> >> > about 10 min. So I had nothing to do between tapes. So, to take
> >> >> > advantage of this waiting time I read everything that looked useful or
> >> >> > interesting in the DCL dictionary and the EDT reference manual. I made
> >> >> > a big step forward that day.
>
> >> >> And considering how ulikely I would be to actually need any of that
> >> >> information I would have considered it a waste of time.  If I need
> >> >> to read to kill time Tom Clancy is much more useful.
>
> >> > For me it was very useful as I was a beginner, newbie, or what have
> >> > you. It seemed that everyone else in the physics group knew a lot more
> >> > than I did. So I wanted to catch up. Life was better.
>
> >> I tend to read the information I need and not just information that
> >> may or may not prove useful at some remote point in the future.
>
> > Actually, I did say that I only read the parts that appeared
> > interesting and/or useful.
>
> So, how is something "secret" "interesting and/or useful"?  If it was
> secret, how would you even know it existed?  Although I think un-documented
> is a beter description that secret.  And un-documented things are
> usually un-documented for a reason.

Quantum mechanics was secret at one time. Without knowledge of it we'd
still be using radio tubes.

>
>
>
> > But then again, what about information that you miss that would help
> > you do what you need to do much more eficiently and easily than if you
> > just "read what you need"? Maybe there's some tool you don't know
> > about that will do it easier than if you just find some other tool
> > because that's all you need?
>
> You ask experts.  And if it sounds useful you do further research.
> That's what separates experts and neophytes.

Fine. Then my gripe is that I have to waste time finding experts
instead a quick lookup in the context-sensitive help.

>
>
>
> > There are many a time where it's a good idea to learn stuff that you
> > might need: school, your car manual, preparation for cyberattacks that
> > may not happen so you wouldn't need to know about it, etc.
>
> That may be true, but I probably don't need to know anything that I have
> never even heard of.  If I hear about it and think it might be useful, I
> will research it.  For example:  I now know there are some undocumented
> features of Windows Advanced Search.  Guess what, I am not going to do
> any research on this because I don't use Windows Advanced Search and don't
> anticipate ever needing it. I have better (non-Windows) tools fof doing
> that job.

I answered this above.

>
> bill
>
> --
> Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
> billg... at cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> University of Scranton   |
> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>

AEF