[Info-vax] OT: Arun Kishan

[Bill Gunshannon]

In article <00A976FB.E4D5042F at sendspamhere.org>,
	VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
> In article <7r3ecgFii4U1 at mid.individual.net>, billg999 at cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>In article <4b4bee9d$0$272$14726298 at news.sunsite.dk>,
>>	Arne Vajhøj <arne at vajhoej.dk> writes:
>>> On 11-01-2010 07:47, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>> In article<hiev8l$oq9$01$1 at news.t-online.com>, Michael Kraemer<M.Kraemer at gsi.de>  writes:
>>>>> Richard B. Gilbert schrieb:
>>>>>> I was doing Unix, Windows and VMS at my last job.  The Unix was running
>>>>>> on X86 hardware and supporting a typesetting application.  The Windows
>>>>>> part was removing virii and worms and patching Windows to close some of
>>>>>> the "holes" being exploited by said virii and worms.  The VMS support
>>>>>> occupied very little of my time.
>>>>>
>>>>> In my experience the amount of necessary daily support is
>>>>> roughly proportional to the number of users,
>>>>> especially on the desktop.
>>>>
>>>> In my experience, it's been:
>>>>
>>>> Support person = ceil (1/(number of users on system))
>>>>
>>>> On VMS and unix, number of users on system is typically>1.  Regardless,
>>>> 1 support person for VMS and unix.  However, with WEENDOZE, it's 1 user
>>>> per box...
>>>>
>>>> Support person = ceil (1/(1 WEENDOZE user)) * WEENDOZE boxes.
>>>>
>>>> Judging by the size of some of the IT support groups I have encountered,
>>>> the math may be a bit off with an additional fudge factor...
>>>>
>>>> Support person = ceil (1/(1 WEENDOZE user)) * (WEENDOZE boxes + fudge)
>>>>
>>>> Fudge is usually for the support of the WEENDOZE server to which these
>>>> single user WEENDOZE boxes connect.
>>>>
>>>> It's like buying a car with a full time mechanic.
>>> 
>>> But for some reasons the CIO's have not figured that out yet !?!?
>>
>>So, when are we finally going to put this myth to rest (like the Cutler
>>is god myth)?
>>
>>This place has always had a nearly one-to-one sysadminr-to-VMS
>>ratio while I have repeatedly stated that I do more than a dozen
>>Unix servers almost a dozen Windows servers and lots of clients
>>(including student labs) and, at one time, several VMS systems
>>and even some PDP-11's running vasrious OSes, with a one man shop.
>>
>>And, lets look at other sites I know.  When i was mobed I visited
>>sites with thousands of users scattered over thousands of square
>>miles being supported by 2-3 sys admins.  I just interviewed with
>>a place that has over 20 Windows servers and around 10,000 users
>>with a total support staff of 6 people for not only the Windows
>>stuff, but for everything including the network.
>>
>>It really is time to get a grip on reality or a lot of former VMS
>>workers are going to need to learn how to say "Do you want fries
>>with that?" for their next job.
> 
> It's not a myth, Bill...  You've been around and doing this since the 
> early days of the systems you've mentioned.  Look in the corporation's
> IT department today.  Filled with kids with 6 month certificates and
> their only claim to fame is that they're able to beat some video game
> without cheat codes.

So, how is it Windows fault that Corporations hire cheap and end out
with incompetent sys admins?  Guess what, after the .com bubble burst
Linux became very much the same.  Every kid who ran a web server in
his mom's basement suddenly became an unemployed "IT Professional".
Trust me, we got here applying as students.  Thought they should just
be given credit for half their courses because they had been doing
"IT Consulting" since they were sophmores in high school.  Amazing
how many of them either dropped out of school entirely or ended up
changing majors to something a little less heavy.

> 
> The son-in-law has been working over time for the past several days 
> to bring a new WEENDOZE server on-line where he works.  Sadly, he's
> very much a WEENDOZE zealot.  

Or one could say he just understands the business he has chosen to
work in.

>                               Even with 10 year of experience, he's
> been fighting this system.  

Sounds like he didn't get much real experience in those 10 years.
Windows is not rocket science.

>                             So, perhaps you should talk with him and

I'm always available.  For a price.   :-)

> find out what apps they are trying to run.  I'll bet they're not any
> you've encountered.  

Could be.  But I can say the same.  I have my foot in two worlds and
with the exception of the usual Office Suite they share very little
in the line of apps.

>                       It's not always an OS (or in this case WEENDOZE)
> only issue but one of the OS coupled with the apps runnin on it.

Which is always true in all cases with all OSes.

> 
> A large multi-national chocolate confection company where I did some
> time a few years ago had one VMS system manager at each of its sites
> and these sites had several VMS system.  They had server people that
> were in charge on the one IBM mainframe and many more people support-
> ing their WEENDOZE environment than I think there were users thereof.

You know as well as I do that there is no place with more Windows
support people than Windows users.  That is the usual pap that
people here like to spout that just makes them look foolish.  As
I said, I no longer know how many VMS systems the datacenter here
has (the number goes down constantly) but they have usually had
more VMS admins than Unix admins and the number of Unix boxes has
been higher for quite some time.  Windows admins?  I am sure they
have a dozen or so supporting a couple thousand users (if you count
the students as users, too).  I do it all by myself.  Unix, Windows
and at one time VMS and other more obscure OSes.  

> 
> Another site, a huge auto rental/leasing company, has co-located VMS
> boxes.  One system manager that knowns enough to great accounts with
> a DCL script (I wager he'd be lost completely in UAF) and how to re-
> boot and change the tapes in the backup system.  These systems just
> run along.  

So do my Unix and Windows boxes.  Trust me, I know.  I was just
away for 6 months mobilized with the Army.  Even though I suggested
it they did not hire a temp replacement for me.  Everything, yes
everything, just kept on running all the time I was gone.  They even
went through a power shutdown (because of construction on the back
of the building) and all my boss had to do was power the boxes back
up and everything went back to normal.

>             Their employees all use WEENDOZE boxes to access the VMS
> server (database) for leasing info, payment and other tasks associated
> with the business.  About 100 people in the main office and countless
> others accessing remotely.  I've met at least 2 dozen people that are
> on staff for the WEENDOZE support.  The linux web server they run is
> managed by some outsource.

Sounds like either they, too, have bought into the army of MS admins
myth or they just have bad HR practices and don't hire the best.  Or,
most likely, they pay poorly and get what they pay for.

> 
> I could tell you about about a Healthcare provider and one large mid-
> west public power provider with WEENDOZE guys put in charge of their
> VMS systems.  The one guy was SOOO dumb that when asked to get info
> from the system console, he would snap a picture of the console with
> a point-and-shoot and email a M$ W(ei)RD doc with the photo incorpor-
> ated within it.  

Does the image show the info required?  Then what's the problem with
the media chosen to do it?  If they want otherwise, specify how you
want it.  In any event, how can you fault a guy who was hired to do
MS support for not knowing something as obscure as VMS?  He had very
likely never seen a VMS system before.

>                  If you think I'm making this guy up, there another
> c.o.v. poster here who's had this character in a VMS training class. 

What's your point?  Now you fault a guy who was hired for his
Windows experience because he doesn't know VMS?  How far would
you get with IBM DOS/E? What about PRIMOS?  Univac Exec8?

> 
> Just a few examples of the scope of the corporate IT staffing and the
> level of competence (or incompetence) that's out there.

It is not incompetence to not know a system that was not a requirement
when you got hired.  Well, maybe it is.  But the incompetence in that
case is in the hands of the manager who is using the wrong people for
the job.

And none of this provides any evidence that it takes more than one
competent MS sys admin to manage a system with several thousand users.

I have feet in two very different IT worlds.  One is probably the most
draconian you are ever going to see and the other is very close to the
opposite.  I run both of them as secure and reliable systems.  One of
them I do this with an almost non-existant budget.  What MS is selling
today isn't Windows 3.1.  And people who think these systems can't do
real work and refuse to keep up to date on how to make them do real
work better buy comfortable shoes, because they are going to spend a
lot of time standing in the unemployment line.

bill
 

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999 at cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>