[Info-vax] OT: Arun Kishan

[Bill Gunshannon]

In article <4b53c9b8$0$273$14726298 at news.sunsite.dk>,
	Arne Vajhøj <arne at vajhoej.dk> writes:
> On 14-01-2010 07:57, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> In article<4b4e8a0f$0$270$14726298 at news.sunsite.dk>,
>> 	Arne Vajhøj<arne at vajhoej.dk>  writes:
>>> On 12-01-2010 10:38, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>> In article<7r3ecgFii4U1 at mid.individual.net>, billg999 at cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>>>> In article<4b4bee9d$0$272$14726298 at news.sunsite.dk>,
>>>>> 	Arne Vajhøj<arne at vajhoej.dk>   writes:
>>>>>> On 11-01-2010 07:47, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>>>>> Support person = ceil (1/(1 WEENDOZE user)) * (WEENDOZE boxes + fudge)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Fudge is usually for the support of the WEENDOZE server to which these
>>>>>>> single user WEENDOZE boxes connect.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's like buying a car with a full time mechanic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But for some reasons the CIO's have not figured that out yet !?!?
>>>>>
>>>>> So, when are we finally going to put this myth to rest (like the Cutler
>>>>> is god myth)?
>>>>>
>>>>> This place has always had a nearly one-to-one sysadminr-to-VMS
>>>>> ratio while I have repeatedly stated that I do more than a dozen
>>>>> Unix servers almost a dozen Windows servers and lots of clients
>>>>> (including student labs) and, at one time, several VMS systems
>>>>> and even some PDP-11's running vasrious OSes, with a one man shop.
>>>>>
>>>>> And, lets look at other sites I know.  When i was mobed I visited
>>>>> sites with thousands of users scattered over thousands of square
>>>>> miles being supported by 2-3 sys admins.  I just interviewed with
>>>>> a place that has over 20 Windows servers and around 10,000 users
>>>>> with a total support staff of 6 people for not only the Windows
>>>>> stuff, but for everything including the network.
>>>>>
>>>>> It really is time to get a grip on reality or a lot of former VMS
>>>>> workers are going to need to learn how to say "Do you want fries
>>>>> with that?" for their next job.
>>>>
>>>> It's not a myth, Bill...  You've been around and doing this since the
>>>> early days of the systems you've mentioned.  Look in the corporation's
>>>> IT department today.  Filled with kids with 6 month certificates and
>>>> their only claim to fame is that they're able to beat some video game
>>>> without cheat codes.
>>>
>>> The average would have a college degree in CSc.
>>
>> Which, of course, means nothing.  I woukld take 4 years of real
>> experience over a 4 year degree any day. (and, remember, I work
>> with these people on both sides of the degree every day!)  The
>> only employer I know of who still sees this is the government
>> who, in most cases, will accept experience in lieu of education
>> but usualy states plainly in their vacancy announcements that
>> 'education can not be used as a substitute for required experience."
> 
> But it is a lot easier for people with an education to get experience
> than for people with experience to get an education.

Not necessarily.  Experience requires a job, how many unemployed VMS
people do you know?  Education can be done while working or not.  It
only take time (and money in nmost cases, but financial aid is available).
And it takes an equal amount of tioem to get 4 years of experience as it
does for 4 years of education.   :-) 

> 
>>>> The son-in-law has been working over time for the past several days
>>>> to bring a new WEENDOZE server on-line where he works.  Sadly, he's
>>>> very much a WEENDOZE zealot.  Even with 10 year of experience, he's
>>>> been fighting this system.  So, perhaps you should talk with him and
>>>> find out what apps they are trying to run.  I'll bet they're not any
>>>> you've encountered.  It's not always an OS (or in this case WEENDOZE)
>>>> only issue but one of the OS coupled with the apps runnin on it.
>>>
>>> There must be hundreds of thousands of apps for Windows. That is a
>>> jungle.
>>
>> Not sure I would say "hundreds of thousands" but then, it depends
>> on your definition of "app".  Do you count things like "Frogger"? :-)
> 
> Almost everything is available for Windows.
> 
> During the beta test of Windows 7 MS got data about
> users running 800000 different software and version
> combinations.

Yes, but how many of them are things like "Frogger"?  :-)

> 
>>> But in general it is good for an OS to have many apps.
>>
>> A quick count of the Ports Tree I FreeBSD returns over 24,000.  And
>> that would be just the ones that have been tested and known to compile
>> and work under FreeBSD.
> 
> The *BSD's has a nice app base. But they are lacking in the
> big commercial apps.

And why is that?  Simply because the people who control FreeBSD (actually,
all of the BSD's) have no interest in being any more than they are right
now.  I think most of them think they are still with the CSRG and this
is all just an academic endeavor.

> 
>>>>   A large multi-national chocolate confection company where I did some
>>>> time a few years ago had one VMS system manager at each of its sites
>>>> and these sites had several VMS system.  They had server people that
>>>> were in charge on the one IBM mainframe and many more people support-
>>>> ing their WEENDOZE environment than I think there were users thereof.
>>>>
>>>> Another site, a huge auto rental/leasing company, has co-located VMS
>>>> boxes.  One system manager that knowns enough to great accounts with
>>>> a DCL script (I wager he'd be lost completely in UAF) and how to re-
>>>> boot and change the tapes in the backup system.  These systems just
>>>> run along.  Their employees all use WEENDOZE boxes to access the VMS
>>>> server (database) for leasing info, payment and other tasks associated
>>>> with the business.  About 100 people in the main office and countless
>>>> others accessing remotely.  I've met at least 2 dozen people that are
>>>> on staff for the WEENDOZE support.  The linux web server they run is
>>>> managed by some outsource.
>>>
>>> Most servers apps are easy to maintain.
>>>
>>> The problem is client apps and end users. They can use an infinite
>>> amount of support.
>>
>> Not if the company takes the practical route of not letting users
>> install anything on their company owned PC.  Baselining can solve
>> a world of problems.  And in addition to the fact that the Windows
>> environment can be secured within itself, there are also products,
>> like Mcaffee's Host Based Security System, available that, while
>> seen by some as rather draconian, can lock them down even more while
>> still allowing business to be transacted.
> 
> You can do a lot of things with Windows.
> 
> But most sites don't.

And, once again, how is that MS's fault?  Secure and stable is very
doable.  I (and I am sure many other) do it every day.  I do it in
an academic environment where "draconian" just is not allowed.  In
business, draconian should be the word of the day.  One could even
argue that not using very draconian sys admin methods in a business
environment was not using due diligence!

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999 at cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>