[Info-vax] Current VMS engineering quality, was: Re: What's VMS up to these

[Fritz Wuehler]

Bob Eager <news0001 at eager.cx> wrote:

> On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 17:39:12 -0700, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> 
> > On 2012-03-16 16.48, Bob Eager wrote:
> >> On Sat, 17 Mar 2012 00:43:26 +0100, Fritz Wuehler wrote:
> >>
> >>> Johnny Billquist<bqt at softjar.se>  wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> 2. Unix distributed networks using ethernet and shared disks is not
> >>>> robust at all. You must be totally uninformed if you claim this. Have
> >>>> you ever used a machine with an NFS root? Any time the server
> >>>> stopped, rebooted, or whatever, all clients *freeze*. Not even
> >>>> rebooting, unless you press the power switch. You just sit there
> >>>> waiting for the NFS server to wake up again.
> >>>
> >>> Correct. This just happened to me (facepalm) today on a modern Linux
> >>> system 2.6.29.something kernel. I didn't think and took my NFS box
> >>> offline and when my Linux client couldn't get to the mounted share
> >>> ..........................
> >>
> >> So, that's a Linux problem.
> > 
> > No. That is a general problem with all Unix systems, and is not specific
> > to a certain implentation, but an effect of the whole design of Unix and
> > NFS. There is no Unix anywhere that will behave any different.
> 
> Despite the fact that they have radically different source code and 
> implementation? I think not.

The reality is as Johnny stated. They all break, all of them.

> I say it again. UNIX is not an operating system. There is no one uNIX.

Maybe not but all known UNIX breaks this way.

> >> UNIX is not an operating system. It's a specification, and that
> >> specification doesn't include NFS anyway. Sweeping generalisations
> >> don't help. Some systems conforming to 'UNIX' work OK in this
> >> situation, and some don't.

Let us know which one does and we'll recreate the failure for you, if you
promise to go away and never come back.

> >> On *your* system.
> > 
> > On *every* system. This story is as old as NFS itself. Long before Linux
> > even existed.
> 
> So, it's a problem with NFS. Not UNIX.

It's a problem with UNIX's NFS implementation.

I confirm it also breaks on NetBSD and OpenBSD.

> >>>>   Also, if anything in the server configuration changes, all clients
> >>>> needs to be rebooted, no matter if the server comes back, since NFS
> >>>> don't allow any recovery in that case. And we are talking about very
> >>>> ungraceful rebooting here. No controlled take down. You'll have to
> >>>> reach for the reset or power switch, since controlled shutdown is
> >>>> impossible.
> >>
> >> On *your* system.
> > 
> > Again... See above...

Yep, Johnny is correct. On every known UNIX system.

> >> Interesting that VMS bashing is not allowed, but UNIX bashing is (by
> >> some people's rules, anyway). Free speech?

UNIX blows, that may be a reason why UNIX bashing is ok. The bashing has
technical merit. I personally approve of Windows and Linux bashing also.

> Too early for that; NFS came later. And I was hacking UHNIX kernel back 
> in the Sixth Edition days..

So bring up a copy and watch it freeze.