[Info-vax] VAX/VMS V1, V1.5 or anything older than V5

[Richard B. Gilbert]

On 5/31/2012 2:56 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2012-05-30 11:50, Nomen Nescio wrote:
>> Johnny Billquist<bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
>>
>>>> To be fair, TSO was no worse than what was available elsewhere *at
>>>> the time*
>>>> and in many cases, considerably better. Are you really going to tell
>>>> me TSO
>>>> edit is worse than flipping load switches on a PDP box (that wasn't
>>>> built
>>>> for another decade or so) or even using TECO (even though it hadn't
>>>> been
>>>> developed and wouldn't be for a decade?) Look at all the compilers that
>>>> OS/360 had available, 2 versions of FORTRAN, PL/I, COBOL, RPG, and even
>>>> things like ALGOL68, SNOBOL4, etc. There's a lot of fun stuff you can
>>>> do. Show me another system from the late 1960s that's even half as
>>>> capable
>>>> or productive.
>>>
>>> There were lots of much better time sharing systems around already
>>> then...
>>
>> Depends on whether you think a computer system is, a GUI like
>> Microsoft says
>> it is, or a platform for actually getting work done, which is what IBM
>> is. I
>> see you're a GUI-uberalles kind of guy.
>
> Wow. For one not knowing anything, you sure say a lot...
>
> First you shoot off about the 60s, and how much better TSO was than
> anything else out there. And when I point out that TSO didn't exist in
> the 60s, but there was actually rather good timesharing systems already
> by the time TSO came about, you start rambling about Microsoft GUI stuff.
> Talk about comparing apples and oranges. The company Microsoft didn't
> even exist in the timeframe we are talking about...
> And I've yet see Microsoft to produce a single, usable time sharing system.
>
>> You seem to be trying to sidestep the question which wasn't addressed
>> to you
>> anyway, by saying wow, TSO came out in 1971. So what? It was still better
>> than flipping switches on not-yet-invented DEC machines or using TECO.
>
> This is a newsgroup. If you wanted to address a question or a statement
> to a specific question, you should shoot him an email. Try it, it
> actually works.
>
> So, the PDP-10 was definitely invented by 1971. I actually don't
> understand what your problem is in understanding here. You are trying to
> defend a pathetically bad product (TSO) in the face of much better
> product who already existed when TSO was introduced.
>
> Just give it up. It will do you credit...
>
>> The biggest baddest machine DEC ever made couldn't get out of its own
>> way. All the DEC stuff was fun for single users but it couldn't make
>> it in
>> real life.
>
> Single user? Yes, I seem to remember that concept. IBM batch was another
> name for it. Let's be honest here, when we talk about interactive,
> timesharing use, IBM just sucked, while DEC was very much on top of the
> game in the late 60s, early 70s.
>
> You wishing otherwise won't make it so.
>
>>>> What was the state of UNIX in 1970? VMS? Let's compare apples to
>>>> apples if
>>>> you want to make smartass remarks about OS/360 ;-)
>>>
>>> Happy to. Ever used TOPS-10? It was based on Monitor, which came about
>>> around 1967, and was renamed to TOPS-10 in 1970.
>>
>> I used it and it was fine for academic use for 2 or three users. If
>> you need
>> to actually run a company bigger than 2 or 3 people you needed a real
>> box.
>
> So you obviously have not used it. Ok...
>
>>> I'm sure others can come up with plenty of other examples... Unix was
>>> ported to the PDP-11 around 1971.
>>
>> Yeah but UNIX was still single user for most of the early days and
>> even now
>> it's so far behind System Z in RAS, performance, security, stability,
>> throughput etc etc etc that it really doesn't matter. The point,
>> again, was
>> all the great stuff you could do then and now with OS/360 and all the
>> compilers I mentioned. It actually runs. It has real documentation,
>> and real
>> error messages you can look up in books. It's stuff the biggest companies
>> actually paid money for, not overweight claptraps DEC had to give away to
>> colleges.
>
> I made a comment about your silly claims, such as Unix didn't even exist
> when TSO reigned. I just pointed out that Unix certainly existed at the
> same time as TSO was introduced.
>
> Keep your facts straight. It helps in an argument.
>
>>> TSO was a dinosaur even when it was new. And it didn't improve much with
>>> time. I remember people using it in the 80s, with little amusement.
>>
>> You remembering people using it in the 80s with little amusement sure
>> shoots
>> down everything I said. I defer to you, since you know what you're
>> talking
>> about ;-)
>
> I obviously know lots more than you do. Even if there definitely are
> things I don't know.
>
>> Hey Duke, you ever work on a Japanese transmission?
>>
>> Nope, but I watched a guy fix a German transmission once...
>
> And that should tell us what, exactly?
>
> Johnny

How about you guys "duke it out" off-line?  I somehow doubt that it's
of general interest!