[Info-vax] [Attn: HP Employees] PDP-11 OS hobbyist licensing

[Bill Gunshannon]

In article <l2eed3$opp$1 at iltempo.update.uu.se>,
	Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> writes:
> On 2013-09-30 20:30, glen herrmannsfeldt wrote:
>> Simon Clubley <clubley at remove_me.eisner.decus.org-earth.ufp> wrote:
>>
>> (snip)
>>
>>> As I understand it, the issues everyone seems to be talking about when
>>> this comes up fall into two main stages.
>>
>>> 1) The existing Mentec license talks about DEC owned emulators only and
>>> the language dates from the time when simh was created while it's creator
>>> worked at DEC.
>>
>> As well as I understand it, and IANAL, when a company is bought by
>> another company contracts (such as license agreements) automatically
>> apply to the new company. Consider that a bank might buy another bank
>> that holds many mortgage loans. You don't stop paying just because the
>> bank you contracted with doesn't exist anymore.
>>
>>> The first stage would be to extend that so that the Mentec license (or
>>> something like it) continues to cover simh now it's no longer a DEC
>>> project.
>>
>> On the other hand, I have no idea how the transfer of emulators
>> was done to HP.
> 
> Well, that is the point. It was not transferred to HP. In fact, it got 
> spun away from DEC all together. Now, a continued work by an individual 
> might not be covered by the same license as the original work.

It was a work by that individual from the very beginning.  Did DEC ever
offer SIMH as a product?  A quick look at the sources going back to 2003
(that's as far back as mine go and also the archive) shown copyrights
going back to 1993 and nary a single one that says DEC, Compaq or HP.
Which brings the infamous "MENTEC License" even more into question.

> 
> That is what one part of the problem here is about. The license in 
> question mentions "emulator owned by DEC". This was simh, back when simh 
> was a DEC "product". 

Was it ever a real product?

>                      Bob later quit DEC, 

Did he quit or just retire?

>                                          and continued working on simh 
> on his own. Is this later, improved version, owned by Bob still covered 
> by a license for software on a simulator owned by DEC?
> Sounds doubtful, if you ask me.

The total lack of any DEC, Compaq or HP Copyright messages in any of
the siources would make one wonder if anything since at least 2003 are
even derivative works.

> 
> You might possibly claim that the version DEC had was probably 
> transferred to HP, and *that* version would still be covered. But I 
> doubt anyone can find that version of simh anymore.
> 
>>> 2) A relaxing of the OS license conditions so that they can become
>>> available, open source style, for people to work on. A example here
>>> might be the way CDE was made open.
>>
>>> My main interest is in stage (1), so I will leave others more interested
>>> in stage (2) to talk about that.
>>
>>> PS: BTW, is TOPS-10/TOPS-20 still HP owned, or was that placed in the
>>> public domain by DEC ?
>>
>> As well as I understand it, and this is without looking it up for
>> a while, it isn't public but is open for the usual hobbyist usage.
>> Then again, I was only interested in hobby usage so I might have
>> forgotten. You should probably look it up before you start using
>> it to run your business.
> 
> Rich Alderson already followed up more on this, and yes, Tops-10/TOPS-20 
> are not in the public domain. But they are also not owned by HP anymore. 
> And hobbyist usage is allowed.
> 

Is the source for either available?  What were they written in? (not that
I have any knowledge of DEC-10 or DEC-20 architecture and I assume they
were probably written in assembler!)

Still holding my breath waiting for a release of RSTS/E source so I can
do my port to the M6809.  :-)

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999 at cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>