[Info-vax] [Attn: HP Employees] PDP-11 OS hobbyist licensing

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2013-10-01 17:09, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> In article <l2eed3$opp$1 at iltempo.update.uu.se>,
> 	Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> writes:
>> On 2013-09-30 20:30, glen herrmannsfeldt wrote:
>>> Simon Clubley <clubley at remove_me.eisner.decus.org-earth.ufp> wrote:
>>>
>>> (snip)
>>>
>>>> As I understand it, the issues everyone seems to be talking about when
>>>> this comes up fall into two main stages.
>>>
>>>> 1) The existing Mentec license talks about DEC owned emulators only and
>>>> the language dates from the time when simh was created while it's creator
>>>> worked at DEC.
>>>
>>> As well as I understand it, and IANAL, when a company is bought by
>>> another company contracts (such as license agreements) automatically
>>> apply to the new company. Consider that a bank might buy another bank
>>> that holds many mortgage loans. You don't stop paying just because the
>>> bank you contracted with doesn't exist anymore.
>>>
>>>> The first stage would be to extend that so that the Mentec license (or
>>>> something like it) continues to cover simh now it's no longer a DEC
>>>> project.
>>>
>>> On the other hand, I have no idea how the transfer of emulators
>>> was done to HP.
>>
>> Well, that is the point. It was not transferred to HP. In fact, it got
>> spun away from DEC all together. Now, a continued work by an individual
>> might not be covered by the same license as the original work.
>
> It was a work by that individual from the very beginning.  Did DEC ever
> offer SIMH as a product?  A quick look at the sources going back to 2003
> (that's as far back as mine go and also the archive) shown copyrights
> going back to 1993 and nary a single one that says DEC, Compaq or HP.
> Which brings the infamous "MENTEC License" even more into question.

I don't think DEC ever offered it as a product, but it was definitely 
owned by DEC back then.
The usual yadda yadda about software being developed while in the 
employent of and so on...

>> That is what one part of the problem here is about. The license in
>> question mentions "emulator owned by DEC". This was simh, back when simh
>> was a DEC "product".
>
> Was it ever a real product?

Not that I know of, which is why I put it in quotes. It was owned by 
DEC, but it was always just a hobby project, and distributed freely, as 
far as I know and can remember.

However, Bob Supnik is still around, so we could ask him for 
clarification on this.

>>                       Bob later quit DEC,
>
> Did he quit or just retire?

I honestly don't know.

>>                                           and continued working on simh
>> on his own. Is this later, improved version, owned by Bob still covered
>> by a license for software on a simulator owned by DEC?
>> Sounds doubtful, if you ask me.
>
> The total lack of any DEC, Compaq or HP Copyright messages in any of
> the siources would make one wonder if anything since at least 2003 are
> even derivative works.

I can only make assumptions based on what I've heard/read here. My 
understanding was that the license for old versions of DEC OSes on a 
simulator owned by DEC was a reference to simh. I could be wrong... In 
which case the license is worth even less.

>> You might possibly claim that the version DEC had was probably
>> transferred to HP, and *that* version would still be covered. But I
>> doubt anyone can find that version of simh anymore.
>>
>>>> 2) A relaxing of the OS license conditions so that they can become
>>>> available, open source style, for people to work on. A example here
>>>> might be the way CDE was made open.
>>>
>>>> My main interest is in stage (1), so I will leave others more interested
>>>> in stage (2) to talk about that.
>>>
>>>> PS: BTW, is TOPS-10/TOPS-20 still HP owned, or was that placed in the
>>>> public domain by DEC ?
>>>
>>> As well as I understand it, and this is without looking it up for
>>> a while, it isn't public but is open for the usual hobbyist usage.
>>> Then again, I was only interested in hobby usage so I might have
>>> forgotten. You should probably look it up before you start using
>>> it to run your business.
>>
>> Rich Alderson already followed up more on this, and yes, Tops-10/TOPS-20
>> are not in the public domain. But they are also not owned by HP anymore.
>> And hobbyist usage is allowed.
>>
>
> Is the source for either available?  What were they written in? (not that
> I have any knowledge of DEC-10 or DEC-20 architecture and I assume they
> were probably written in assembler!)

MACRO-10 I would assume. Tops-10 is available, while TOPS-20 is not, as 
Rich said elsewhere.

Oh, actually, I wouldn't be surprised of parts of TOPS-20 was in BLISS-36.

> Still holding my breath waiting for a release of RSTS/E source so I can
> do my port to the M6809.  :-)

:-)

	Johnny