[Info-vax] 1 year.

[IanD]

On Friday, August 7, 2015 at 9:43:49 AM UTC+10, David Froble wrote:
> IanD wrote:
> 
> > Rather than do a point by point response...
> > 
> > Basically the organisation likes VMS from a stability point of view
> 
> If that is the case, then if they want to make a good decision, they 
> will look for a way to stay on VMS.  If they are not going to attempt to 
> make good decisions, ....
> 

ok, this time I will comment in-line

what I am dealing with here is an outsourcing organisation of which I am employed by. Hence I am treading carefully not to bite the hand that feeds me!

> > The application has not been touched in over 10 years and there are
> > issues around the source code but I am not at liberty to say what
> > exactly or to make further references to the customer base in case
> > someone data matches certain things and identifies more information
> > than I want to reveal :-)
> 
> Without details, suggestions are not very likely ....
> 

and as stated, details i cannot give for reason of confidentiality and the potential that our client could be data matched

> But in general, if application sources are not available, then someone 
> has made a bad decision.  At a minimum, if an application is purchased, 
> some sort of escrow should have been set up.  I guess it's way too late 
> to talk the barn door if the horses are miles away.
> 

they did. It is an application that was supported from a different country but behind the scenes actually written by another very large IT company. The very large IT company has issues with the source code, that's all I can say

The situation possibly came about because at one point in time this application was run around the globe as a standard offering. wind the clock forward and each geographical region went their own way but stayed under the name banner only. The application in this region basically became grandfathered and whatever level of support that existed through other countries has folded and gone over time - yes, lousy decisions made all along - no different really in some ways to relying on a third party application I think

> > Then you have the diminishing skills of the folk who are meant to
> > look after the application but being VMS adverse, this too is a
> > loosing downward spiral
> 
> This I do not buy.  For example, my son works at a nuclear power 
> station.  They trained him for what he must know, they pay him a decent 
> salary, and they have a reactor operator.  Application design and 
> programming is no different, other than a person needs to have an 
> apptitude for the work.  If you want VMS capable people, hire them, 
> train them, pay them, and you have what you need.
> 

that's ok if you don't buy it, I'm not selling anything :-)

you have made an assumption that all companies are like what your son works for, prepared to invest in training and knowledge appreciation of the workforce. No such luck with this place. they have an agenda to run with minimum costs. Quality doesn't factor into it. The system/application can continually be blammed (and is blamed) for failing. the real issue of lack of skill remains hidden from the eyes of the client, so as to push the client to pay for the system/application to be replaced - it's really that simple. I personally think it's fraudulent behaviour which is why I will have no part in it other than to have to suffer the consequences

If only all workplaces did the right thing or were prepared to pay for quality when it was required...

> > If the code could be lifted and put on an Itanium without the need to
> > recompile, the business would have opted for that long ago - hence
> > why I asked somewhere else about what exactly does a dynamic static
> > translator perform - can it solve this issue for us going ahead?
> 
> This sounds like if the application is still required, then it's going 
> to get re-written, regardless of the platform.  If they like VMS, then 
> why not re-write for VMS?  Probably less effort than any other option.
> 

the application was deemed to not be needed for the past 8 years and should have been abolished by now but I suspect the client doesn't want the customer base to get up and walk to the opposition. The client run a certain type of business that attracts customers. they also resell their services to other entities who have a different shop front. the client would dearly love these shop fronts operating under a different name to slowly fade away and the clients to come to them directly - however, it's a fine line they tread - push too hard and all those customers out there could walk to the opposition instead... 

> > The customer base was once the ants pants as far as the particular
> > industry was concerned but times have changed, they represent a drag
> > on profits now and what they were initially required to do in terms
> > of rapid expansion is no longer required, so they are not a focus
> > anymore hence why the application has languished for so many years
> > 
> > So if I have been terse with my answers, it is with reason in that I
> > do not want the industry identified nor do I wish to disclose too
> > much for concern that the organisation may possibly suffer customer
> > concern if data matching can link the various parts together etc
> 
> Well, you've been successful, none of the above means a thing to me.
> 
> > The alpha is doing the job fine, the problem is the hardware is old,
> > going out of support and the application is no longer supported and
> > the source code is, err, well, in a 'special' category of it's own
> 
> Sounds like a good fit for an Alpha emulator.
> 

Yes, one member of the cluster is on Charon, the other, an ES class machine cannot be put on Charon, it simply cannot be emulated as yet because no Intel box exists that is fast enough to keep up at this stage - hence we are stuck on the existing alpha hardware for now

> > Yes, I have spoken with people on the business side to let them know
> > there at least is now a pathway forward as far as VMS is concerned
> > but the above problems are driving their decision to get off VMS
> 
> And getting off VMS is going to solve their problem(s) in what way? 
> This is what I don't understand.  At least with say an Alpha emulator, 
> you can continue to run the apps.  If there is going to be a re-write, 
> why is VMS so much worse than any other option?  I say it would be the 
> best option.
> 

It won't but it will ramp up the profits of the outsourcer if they can look after any new system on Linux as they can do so with the same resource base

> > Let's just say that a certain organisation, who makes it profit on
> > body count based in a certain country where IT wages are cheap and
> > quality is sometimes lacking, want a linux system because that way
> > they can rid themselves of the expensive VMS skilled folk and look
> > after whatever new system comes in with the same resource base they
> > currently have, i.e. linux folk. They do not care if this new system
> > match is not the best for their customer nor if the new system will
> > perform any better or be less stable.
> 
> Well in that case, tell me what the business is, so I can avoid it.
> 

Wish I could but then I'd be out of a job. It's not by choice that i am here. The VMS market where I am is very small, one takes what they can get

> > It has now got to the stage where the application folk are looking
> > like shall we say, fools in lots of regards as their lack of VMS
> > understanding see's things breaking and falling over with the blame
> > being put back on 'an old system and an old application'. Thus I am
> > fighting fires on different fronts, so to speak, including fire
> > coming from my own camp!
> > 
> > I was thinking of looking at ways to extract the rdb queries by
> > putting debug flags on but this is only part of the equation to
> > working out the application functionality internally. The application
> > itself was developed with corba and my skills in that area are next
> > to none
> > 
> > Can anyone help provide guidance on how / who, to contact so that one
> > can 'function rip' an application that was developed with corba / c++
> > I believe many years ago and work out a way to develop a new solution
> > on VMS when the source code is, shall we say, somewhat hard to
> > acquire?
> > 
> > Solve this issue and VMS will remain in the workplace, otherwise it's
> > pending doom is already here :-(

and there-in tells the story of why VMS is dying a slow death here :-(