[Info-vax] The future of Ada on VMS

[gérard Calliet]

Le 24/05/2018 à 20:17, johnwallace4 at yahoo.co.uk a écrit :
> On Thursday, 24 May 2018 14:46:01 UTC+1, gérard Calliet  wrote:
>>>
>>> Your effort so far in building the Open source GNAT ADA compiler on OpenVMS appears to me to be the option that has made the most progress so it seems strange that VSI won't pursue this.
>>>
>> The best summary I read.
>>
>> I think VSI has a lot of difficulties dealing with the Open Source
>> strategies.
>>
>> Understandable in a culture of "everything is under control" (which is
>> good).
>>
>> But they don't understand that the survival of VMS depends sometimes on
>> best effort strategies, and that Open Source could be a very good
>> solution in specific cases, if the limits are known.
>>
>> They have to be more relax, and more opened to all efforts in the
>> community. The way they manage Open Source projects on which they are
>> doing (often very good) work is also problematic : not very opened, not
>> very integrated in the Open Sources communities. And I think there is
>> there also a cultural issue.
>>
>> About Ada, yes we hope we'll make other progresses, and perhaps VSI will
>> understand we are more relax than they imagine about collaboration:
>> sometimes, a little (mutual) help is worth it, without necessecity of
>> stone contracts.
>>
>> Gérard Calliet
>>
>> ---
>> L'absence de virus dans ce courrier électronique a été vérifiée par le logiciel antivirus Avast.
>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> 
> Gerard, with greatest respect, I still don't
> understand exactly who is expecting to provide
> what facilities to who in the picture you
> described, let alone what (if any) commercial
> implications might be involved.
> 
> Is there a different description somewhere else,
> perhaps with some background information on
> why VSI might expect this to be financially
> significant enough for them to devote resources
> to it? (Why does it have to be VSI?)
> 
> I have spent several decades on and off working
> with people doing variants on this kind of
> thing, developing on VMS and elsewhere,
> targeting VMS and elsewhere, targeting DEC and
> non-DEC kit, some using 'pure Ada' for design
> reasons and some using Ada as an 'intermediate
> language' because it's what's in the contract.
>   
> I don't get out much these days, but questions
> that might help me (and/or VSI) understand the
> vision might include:
> 
> Where (e.g. what OS) do the Ada developers sit?
> On VMS, on a Linux box, on a Window box?
> 
> Where does the application run? On VMS? On
> 'bare metal' ? Some other environment?
> 
> What does the Ada source code look like?
> Is it user coded from scratch or is it
> autogenerated by a higher level tool, e.g.
> some kind of "Model Based Systems Engineering"
> tool which uses Ada output as a contractual
> obligation rather than another important part
> of the design verification chain.
> 
> Is it pure Ada? Pure Ada plus calls to
> libraries (and if so, which)? Pure Ada plus
> libraries with system services (and if so,
> which target OS, and which particular
> services)?
> 
> Without knowing those answers, it's hard
> to understand what will be required.
> 
> Regardless of those answers...
> I've also spent an embarrassing amount of time
> working with, maintaining (and occasionally
> rewriting) software test and validation tools
> and runtime environments for safety critical
> code and such, with object+debug formats from
> COFF/STABS in the 1980s through to ELF/DWARF
> more recently, and various instruction sets
> and runtimes too. Most recently, when I was
> trying to work with DWARF output from gnat,
> DWARF itself was a bit of a challenge, but any
> non-trivial use with output of Ada compilations
> seemed to require far too much knowledge of
> obscure gnat internals (e.g. use of 'proprietary'
> name-mangling conventions instead of facilities
> defined in the DWARF V3 standard). Maybe that's
> changed.
> 
> Basically, there's a lot of work here. Most
> of it isn't really related to 'open source'
> or even to VSIVMS's (lack of) standards
> compliance (e.g. POSIX).
> 
> How much of it needs to be done ASAP to
> keep VMS in this picture? Which parts
> of the picture need VMS and/or VSI
> involvement? How much can other folks
> deliver with advice from experts elsewhere?
> 
> Most of those questions are backward-facing.
> Some of the answers might be different five
> years from now. The costs and timescales
> and commercial implications of anything
> which results will depend on who 'owns'
> the various pieces of whatever the end
> product turns out to be.
> 
> 
> Predictions are hard at the best of times.
> 
> 
> 
> Further enlightenment very welcome.
> 
Important to say, also: Adacore or VSI as business unit have not be very 
positive on the topic, but persons from Adacore or VSI have always been 
friendly, helpfull. Thanks.