[Info-vax] DZQ11 on VAX/4000 Model 300

[David Wade]

On 14/01/2019 23:25, johnwallace4 at yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> On Monday, 14 January 2019 21:19:24 UTC, David Wade  wrote:
>> On 14/01/2019 17:42, Stephen Hoffman wrote:
>>> On 2019-01-14 17:04:41 +0000, David Wade said:
>>>
>>>>    I have just installed a DZQ11 in my VAX/4000 and once I figured out
>>>> I had by "A" and "B" pins mixed up on the BERG connector  (I had to
>>>> fabricate a lead as it came without any) on a brief test it seems to
>>>> be working just fine.
>>>>
>>>> However when I removed it the VAX seemed to hang on boot. I popped it
>>>> back in and it seems to be working fine.
>>>
>>>> So should I do anything to VMS to manage its configuration?
>>>
>>> Nope.  OpenVMS is working exactly as expected.
>>>
>>
>> Why does it hang when the card is removed? Thats not expected to me...
>> .. if the CSRs worked before, surely they work the same afterwards....
>>
>>>> In case it matters the machine is running VMS 7.3. The other cards in
>>>> the machine are, from the CPU and memory moving left, a TK70
>>>> controller card, a KZQSA SCSI controller with CD ROM and the DZQ11.
>>>>
>>>> Please excuse me asking on here but google seems to be intent on
>>>> referring me to hpe sites which all redirect to the documentation Index.
>>>
>>> HPE is exiting the OpenVMS business.
>>>
>>
>> Then why does it still have the documentation catalogue ...
>>
>>> Use Google Groups search of the comp.os.vms newsgroup archives, search
>>> for the word "serpentine" (though that's less of an issue with BA213 and
>>> BA215 and BA4xx series Q-bus boxes), and learn how the Q-bus and the
>>> Q-bus boards are configured.
>>>
>>
>> The BA440 backplane isn't a serpentine plane is it?
>>
>>> Basically, the Q-bus CSRs and vectors can vary by what's installed in
>>> the Q-bus in the box, and you'll need to adjust the CSR and (if present)
>>> vector settings on one or more other Q-bus modules in the bus, and/or
>>> insert a bus grant card or otherwise fill the vacated slot.
>>>
>>> Start by reading chapters 3 and 4 here:
>>> https://archive.org/stream/bitsavers_decvax630AITechnicalManualBA23EnclosureOct85_15635013/AZ-GLFAB-MN_VAXstation_II_Technical_Manual_BA23_Enclosure_Oct85#mode/2up
>>>
>>
>> That is a Serpentine backplane isn't it? Frome reading the VAX/4000
>> manual the BA440 isn't a serpentine backplane. The CD slots are seem to
>> be generally only used for memory and there is no
>>
>>>
>>> Oh, and ********NEVER********** believe the interrupt vector setting
>>> shown by OpenVMS.   Be skeptical about the CSR setting, too.
>>> OpenVMS VAX will tell you what it thinks or expects the vector to be,
>>> and that may not match reality.
>>> OpenVMS VAX has no direct means of reading the interrupt vector setting,
>>> and the indirect means is dicy at best and is not implemented by OpenVMS
>>> displays.
>>> Again, ********NEVER, EVER, EVER, UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES, DO NOT EVEN
>>> THINK OF IT, NOT-AT-ALL, NOPE, DO NOT MAKE THIS MISTAKE******** trust
>>> what OpenVMS VAX shows for CSR and particularly vector settings.
>>> Remove the boards, and decode the CSR and (if present) the interrupt
>>> vector setting.
>>>
>>> And FWIW, Google seemingly doesn't include the Google Groups content in
>>> most Google searches.  Only the Google Groups search seemingly includes
>>> that data from here in the newsgroup, and that Google Groups search
>>> doesn't always work reliably.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> It sometimes pops up....
>>
>> Dave..
> 
> Without seeing some more info on what happens in the (failed)
> boot process it's hard to be helpful. Are you using a serial
> console whose output can be captured and posted somewhere?
> 

Yes

> Also there is no such thing as VAX/4000, there are various
> VAX 4000 family members of different shapes and sizes and
> capabilities.
> 

VAX 4000 model 300

> To the best of my recollection very few (none?) of them were
> sold in a BA23-type box with the BA23-associated mixed Q/CD
> backplane. See e.g.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VAX_4000
> 
> Also look elsewhere on t'Interweb for references to BA440
> enclosure which was frequently used for VAX 4000, (or even
> look at the manufacturer label on your own enclosure) so
> readers can have a better idea of what's in the box, which
> should help provide better responses to your questions.
> 

Its a BA440

> Is there any chance that the addition of the DZQ card in the
> "VAX/4000" has done something which persists after the card
> is removed? As you rightly point out, it's not unreasonable
> to expect the "orignal" behaviour to be restored when the
> DZQ is removed, if it's purely related to CSRs and vectors
> etc. However...
> 
> Let's suppose (for example - not suggesting that this is
> what's happening here, insufficient data to rule it in or
> rule it out) the insertion of the DZQ makes something visible
> that was previously invisible.
> 
> Also suppose that newly visible something is VMScluster-related
> and contributed to votes (lots of VAX 4000 systems had DSSI
> connected storage. DSSI disks could and did sometimes
> contribute to cluster votes, and in the right circumstances
> that change could lead to an increase in E
> 
> Suppose also that removing the DZQ makes that something go
> away, and that it reappears when the DZQ is put back in,
> either because of changed CSR/vectors or changed grant
> continuity or whatever.
> 
> If it's having an effect on cluster formation, votes, etc,
> it ought to be reasonably obvious from a boot-time console
> log, if it was happening.
> 

Its not clustered

> Or this could be irrelevant to your setup. Right now it's hard
> to say, but a little more detail on what you've actually got
> might well be useful.
> 
> Best of luck. Have a lot of fun.
> 

The detail seems to have got lost in the trimming.....

So a VAX 4000 model 300 as described here:-

http://manx-docs.org/collections/mds-199909/cd1/vax/337abti2.pdf

The technical manual for the BA440 as described in this manual...

http://manx-docs.org/collections/mds-199909/cd2/cabinets/348abmg2.pdf

There are usually two additional cards in the Q-BUS, a TK70 tape 
controller card, which does not have a tape drive connected, and which 
sits next to the CPU. A KZQSA SCSI controller, which gain usually has no 
drives connected, but which is used to connect a CD-ROM, which sits in 
the next slot.

I have a selection of Pen Plotters that I wanted to experiment with so I 
wanted some extra Serial Ports. So I bought a DQZ11. It was cheap enough 
so if it didn't work it was not a big deal.

I can say the system works fine.  I have only run limited tests, but it 
boots, TCPIP works and I can log on using the DZQ11. If I then remove 
the DQZ11 the system won't boot normally, which I found puzzling, and 
wondered why and what to do about it.

I will try and reproduce with a PC console so I can capture the startup 
log...

Dave