[Info-vax] Python on VMS

[Bill Gunshannon]

On 1/16/19 12:01 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 1/16/2019 9:11 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> On 1/16/19 8:34 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> On 1/16/2019 7:55 AM, Neil Rieck wrote:
>>>> Comment-1: I have been installing run-time libraries into VAX, Alpha
>>>> and Itanium for 31-years and have never experienced any breakage with
>>>> compiled programs. Many of these systems just continue to run
>>>> forever. Systems requiring a specific version of Python are just one
>>>> careless upgrade away from failure.
>>>
>>> There is nothing unusual in that new code does not run in old
>>> environment - that is standard.
>>>
>>> But most like when old code continue to run in new environments.
>>> Apparently "most" does not include the Python guys.
>>
>> And when I complained about this with PHP everyone who
>> heard it just said "So what, live with it".
> 
> So do those that want to use Python 3.x.
> 
> But I don't think PHP and Python are comparable in this
> regard.
> 
> Certain PHP features are being removed or disabled by default
> for security reasons.
> 
> But PHP actually do try to maintain compatibility. I believe
> that was one of the reasons PHP 6 was ditched - they could
> not switch to Unicode without breaking too much.

Sorry, my experience does not match yours.  When I was still
working at the University the Department used PHP a lot.  It
was used on the website by most of the professors and was used
to teach web development for courses in three different majors.
Every time a new version of PHP came out it broke pretty much
all of the existing PHP scripts.  Anything beyond the trivial
stopped working and some were even un repairable and had to be
re-written from scratch.  Not the kind of production environment
I would want to work in.

> 
> Python seems willing to change anything they think should
> have been done differently.

Even at the cost of breaking existing systems?  Guess they
don't place much value on their users time or effort.

> 
>>                                            Why would
>> you be surprised that YAEL (yet Another Ego Language)
>> would adopt the same attitude.
> 
> Both PHP and Python are extremely successful and
> way beyond the original creator.
> 
> Guido van Rossum may have a bit of an ego. I don't
> think Rasmus Lerdorf is that bad.

Considering that real languages already existed to do
what these new languages do, what else could it be?

> 
> Disclaimer: I have never actually met them.
> 
>>>> Comment-2: Python is "very powerful" with interfaces into almost
>>>> everything including MySQL and MariaDB 
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Python_(programming_language)
>>>
>>> That is not unique for Python.
>>
>> True. In more ways than one.
>>
>>>
>>> But Python is let me call it "convenient" or "practical" - if
>>> one needs to get something done then it is usually very easy
>>> in Python.
>>
>> It is not really any easier to do anything in Python than
>> in a real language.  But using a real language just wouldn't
>> be as cool.  The current nature of the industry.
> 
> I will assume you by real languages mean traditional
> languages like Fortran, Cobol, C, Pascal etc..

Yes.  And many more, often specifically targeted at and
therefore more adequate for specific tasks.

> 
> Python is a lot easier than those languages for
> a lot of what Python is used for.

Sounds like the arguments we heard back in the days of
HyperTalk on the MAC.  No more programmers.  Teachers,
write your own educational software.  How did that
turn out?

> 
> As a mental exercise try thinking about the reaction
> to these two scenarios:
> 
> A) VSI declare @ and DCL COM files for deprecated and
>     recommend to use Python as replacement.
> 
> B) VSI declare @ and DCL COM files for deprecated and
>     recommend to use Cobol as replacement.

Two different tasks requiring languages with different
functionality.  Although, I  have used COBOL to replace
PHP and ended out with a more efficient, smaller and
easier to understand program.  And it took less time
to develop.  So, one never knows.

bill