[Info-vax] Suggested DCL enhancement

[Craig A. Berry]

On 11/10/20 7:12 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 11/10/20 1:42 PM, Craig A. Berry wrote:
>>
>> On 11/10/20 11:26 AM, Stephen Hoffman wrote:
>>> On 2020-11-10 13:45:09 +0000, John E. Malmberg said:
>>>
>>>> On 11/4/2020 12:21 PM, Stephen Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> IDE usage and management UI usage and app user interface designs 
>>>>> are all shifting developers and administrators and networking folks 
>>>>> and end-users away from the command-line, too.
>>>>
>>>> I have been doing devops on and QA automation on Linux and windows 
>>>> for a while now, and I can assure you that it command line is the 
>>>> dominant method used for actually getting stuff configured and doing 
>>>> functional tests.
>>>>
>>>> GUIs are find for end users at admins that have to deal with a few 
>>>> systems, but when a small collection of systems to manage is at 
>>>> least 100, anything requiring or using a GUI is PITA.   And I have 
>>>> been routinely dealing with much higher numbers of systems.
>>>> ...
>>>> If you are designing a system or application to be managed with a 
>>>> GUI instead of those methods, you are going to be hurting your 
>>>> market share.
>>>
>>> What's the general trend? More command line? Or toward more 
>>> automation and simpler interfaces?
>>>
>>> All of what I'm seeing is trending toward GUI, toward web-managed 
>>> interfaces, toward simpler, and toward automation.
>>
>> The general trend for server management, devops, and, to a lesser extent
>> even development is definitely away from the GUI and back to the command
>> line.  Witness, for example, Microsoft Server Core,[1] which is Windows
>> Server with no "Desktop Experience," or, in other words, Windows with no
>> windows.
> 
> Are you sure about that?  Are you sure the intent isn't just Remote
> Desktop using RDP?  It's how I ran my datacenter even when Windows
> Server still had a GUI presented.

You snipped the link I provided that explained it all in detail.  Remote
management using GUI tools that run on the remote system is one of the
options, at least for some features.  There are very few GUI tools
available locally.  There is no WordPad or Windows Explorer, for example.


>> Development tools and frameworks increasingly promote and even rely on
>> commands typed in terminal or PowerShell windows integrated into the
>> IDE, though code editing is still generally done in a GUI editor.
>>
>> I find all this ironic after a few decades of trying to convince junior
>> developers to use the command line and generally being greeted with
>> terror and confusion.  But the command line is definitely back.
>>
> 
> I don't see that as likely, but it will remain the bastion of
> dinosaurs like me.

It's already happened.  For example, Angular, one of the two biggest web
frameworks, heavily pushes the use of angular-cli, a set of command-line
utilities for managing various aspects of an Angular project. It's in
all the documentation, blogs, training videos, and books; all of the
leaders in the Angular community seem to emphasize that if you want to
be adept with Angular, you need to be familiar with the CLI.