[Info-vax] Logging systartup_vms.com progress to operator.log VMS 7.3-2

[Simon Clubley]

On 2020-10-26, Dave Froble <davef at tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
> On 10/26/2020 12:38 PM, Stephen Hoffman wrote:
>> On 2020-10-26 04:37:08 +0000, geze... at rlgsc.com said:
>>> As I have observed elsewhere, STARTUP is not a package manager.
>>
>> No one here stated it was.
>
> Now, maybe it's just me, and my antiquated and fossilized brain, but 
> that's how "I" understood the discussion, when I even thought I had a clue.
>
> Specifically, system startup and package managers were the "same thing".
>

No. They are distinct in their own right, but they are also part of
the same bigger something, namely the management and making available of
packages for use.

That's what I getting at with my previous comments to you. Installation
is not a one-off process as you previously thought it was but is part of
an ongoing process of updates and patches with changing requirements and
changing dependencies. These dependencies can be nested and shared
across unrelated packages.

The package manager manages the installation and dependency management
and the startup manages the package startup sequencing using the
information provided to it by the package and the package manager.

>> That written, mechanisms allowing app
>> startup at login and app startup at system startup and app startup at
>> incoming network network connections are inherent parts of a modern
>> package management environment, as starting up installed software is a
>> fundamental and inherent part of installing software. Mechanisms for
>> removing same at product removal, too. Either directly from a startup
>> database at app removal (avoiding dangling references), or implicitly
>> removed by the removal of the app bundle (avoiding the need for a SYSMAN
>> STARTUP- or SYSTARTUP*.COM-like central app startup database). I'd tend
>> to prefer the latter, as a simplistic bundle/directory delete can then
>> be used as the product removal?not none, but fewer dangling references.
>
> Well, Ok, let's look at this a bit.
>
> Does VMS need instructions on what to do to prepare the system for 
> operations?  Of course it does.
>
> Do apps need instructions on what to do to prepare the apps for 
> operations?  Sometimes.  Those instructions could be applied at VMS 
> startup, or, at other times.
>
> Now, I could envision some database with entries for VMS startup where 
> VMS reads the database entries and does whatever necessary, such as 
> executing an app specific set of startup instructions, just as the VMS 
> startup does.
>
> But, after imagining such a database, I then have to ask, ISN'T THAT 
> EXACTLY WHAT SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM is?  What is the real difference between 
> EDT and some other database editor?  I will suggest the main difference 
> is prejudice.  Is what's in place the best it could possibly be?  Tell 
> me what in this world is.  But, it does the job.
>

EDT is manual startup management and you are on your own when making
sure that dependencies are started in the right sequence and when
applying changes after things change on updates or patches.

Everyone else does automatic startup sequencing based on the information
provided in the package.

>>> That said, the STARTUP mechanism is quite flexible, when used properly.
>
> HA HA HA!  Define "used properly".  Perhaps that's what drives Steve's 
> opinion.
>

"Used properly": something that complies with the standards expected in
the 21st century, not what was acceptable in the 1980s.

The VMS way currently fails that definition.

>> The SYSMAN STARTUP stuff works, yes. Works within some exceptions and
>> limitations, such as the package management interface that never became
>> available supported.
>>
>> The existing SYSMAN STARTUP interface are limited by present standards.
>> But then app bundles and app isolation and app security wasn't something
>> as commonly discussed twenty and thirty years ago, either.
>>
>> Servers back then were far more isolated, and the
>> servers-to-administrators ratio differed.
>
> Want to bet?
>

I wouldn't go down that path if I were you David. Expectations have
changed in that area even if you are not aware of that.

Simon.

-- 
Simon Clubley, clubley at remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Walking destinations on a map are further away than they appear.