[Info-vax] Logging systartup_vms.com progress to operator.log VMS 7.3-2

[Stephen Hoffman]

On 2020-10-26 18:41:25 +0000, Dave Froble said:

> On 10/26/2020 12:38 PM, Stephen Hoffman wrote:
>> On 2020-10-26 04:37:08 +0000, geze... at rlgsc.com said:
>> 
>>> As I have observed elsewhere, STARTUP is not a package manager.
>> 
>> No one here stated it was.
> 
> Now, maybe it's just me, and my antiquated and fossilized brain, but 
> that's how "I" understood the discussion, when I even thought I had a 
> clue.
> 
> Specifically, system startup and package managers were the "same thing".

SYSMAN STARTUP can't install apps. Therefore it is not a particularly 
functional package manager.

SYSMAN STARTUP is something that is a *component* of and/or is a 
*dependency* of a modern package manager.

OpenVMS has its startup-related entries, and so too do added apps. 
Currently, those startup entries are hand-edited into SYSMAN STARTUP 
both as installed from VSI and as modified by end-users, and are 
hand-edited in SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM mostly by end-users.

VSI pre-populates the startup database, and then the app installers 
provide the rest for those apps with installers, and those folks that 
are not yet using their own package installers then continue to use 
either SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM or SYSMAN STARTUP commands or migrate to 
package installers. Once a site is doing more than a couple of installs 
of its own site-local apps, package installers generally make things 
faster and more repeatable—break-even is prolly around three or five 
servers. And for those using their own home-grown installation scripts, 
they can add SYSMAN STARTUP commands to register their app-specific 
startups. (Though not for login-specific startups, as SYLOGIN and LOGIN 
maintenance remains a gap within what OpenVMS offers.)

And I'm not a proponent of requiring hand edits. Not when automated 
means can replace that, and can replace the need for 
app-install-related SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM documentation. Which is why PCSI 
and VMSINSTAL and SYSMAN STARTUP can all be improved.

> Does VMS need instructions on what to do to prepare the system for 
> operations?  Of course it does.

Why? Why do we need to make those startup changes?

Why do I as an end-user even need that documentation?

Why does that documentation need to exist?

Because we've always done it that way?

Or maybe because maybe the apps haven't had a way to register their 
startups and their logins at install time?

I find this whole discussion interesting, even given many of the 
readers here routinely use systems that register their startups at 
install.

When was the last time y'all edited a system startup file on Microsoft 
Windows or Apple macOS systems, or with Apple iPhone or iPad apps, or 
Google Android apps, or whatever else you've recently installed apps?

(And yes, Microsoft Windows has historically had serious problems with 
app removals and the resulting app debris. macOS too accretes debris. 
Including this acknowledgement here because somebody will then "but 
Windows stinks when doing $whatever" and necessitating me to again 
state "but there's no need to preserve bad ideas such as $whatever". 
Borrowing good ideas does not necessitate also borrowing or preserving 
the bad ideas.)

> If there was one place for all that it sure would be easier.  There 
> SHOULD be a single location for such things.

That host name stuff gets embedded ~everywhere. Fifty different spots 
with definitions wouldn't surprise. ~24 wasn't too difficult to hit 
with OpenVMS itself and common LPs, and I've met additional entries in 
more recent times.

> Until and if that, at least some good documentation on the task would 
> be a good thing.  A simple method for deleting all the old queue stuff 
> so proper new stuff would be nice.

Documentation that's not needed—much like source code that's not 
needed, and that can be removed—is the best documentation. 
Automatically registering startups would simplify the app-specific 
installation documentation.






RB: Your now-former VP told a room full of folks about that ~six years ago.



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