[Info-vax] Logging systartup_vms.com progress to operator.log VMS 7.3-2

[Dave Froble]

On 10/26/2020 3:39 PM, Stephen Hoffman wrote:
> On 2020-10-26 18:41:25 +0000, Dave Froble said:
>
>> On 10/26/2020 12:38 PM, Stephen Hoffman wrote:
>>> On 2020-10-26 04:37:08 +0000, geze... at rlgsc.com said:
>>>
>>>> As I have observed elsewhere, STARTUP is not a package manager.
>>>
>>> No one here stated it was.
>>
>> Now, maybe it's just me, and my antiquated and fossilized brain, but
>> that's how "I" understood the discussion, when I even thought I had a
>> clue.
>>
>> Specifically, system startup and package managers were the "same thing".
>
> SYSMAN STARTUP can't install apps. Therefore it is not a particularly
> functional package manager.
>
> SYSMAN STARTUP is something that is a *component* of and/or is a
> *dependency* of a modern package manager.

Just to clarify, I don't use SYSMAN unless necessary ....

> OpenVMS has its startup-related entries, and so too do added apps.
> Currently, those startup entries are hand-edited into SYSMAN STARTUP
> both as installed from VSI and as modified by end-users, and are
> hand-edited in SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM mostly by end-users.

And if they are to be put into something else, how does that happen? 
Magic hand waving?  Wishful thinking?  Or, perhaps you run some function 
which allows you to "by hand" make the entries?

> VSI pre-populates the startup database, and then the app installers
> provide the rest for those apps with installers, and those folks that
> are not yet using their own package installers then continue to use
> either SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM or SYSMAN STARTUP commands or migrate to
> package installers. Once a site is doing more than a couple of installs
> of its own site-local apps, package installers generally make things
> faster and more repeatable—break-even is prolly around three or five
> servers.

I've never run 5 servers at any customer site, so maybe that's why I'm 
so "ill informed".

> And for those using their own home-grown installation scripts,
> they can add SYSMAN STARTUP commands to register their app-specific
> startups. (Though not for login-specific startups, as SYLOGIN and LOGIN
> maintenance remains a gap within what OpenVMS offers.)
>
> And I'm not a proponent of requiring hand edits. Not when automated
> means can replace that, and can replace the need for app-install-related
> SYSTARTUP_VMS.COM documentation. Which is why PCSI and VMSINSTAL and
> SYSMAN STARTUP can all be improved.

I do agree on the possibility of improvements.

>> Does VMS need instructions on what to do to prepare the system for
>> operations?  Of course it does.
>
> Why? Why do we need to make those startup changes?

I don't need to make any startup changes, once I do the initial system 
set-up, unless something fundamentally changes.

But I do need to perform some initial set-up.

> Why do I as an end-user even need that documentation?

An end user doesn't.  Someone who sets up systems sure does.  Someone 
who is going to make serious changes to a system set-up sure does.

> Why does that documentation need to exist?

So someone who needs it can access it.  And there will always be someone 
who needs it.

> Because we've always done it that way?
>
> Or maybe because maybe the apps haven't had a way to register their
> startups and their logins at install time?

Some things require specific knowledge.

> I find this whole discussion interesting, even given many of the readers
> here routinely use systems that register their startups at install.

You mean systems where "one size fits all"?  I don't think such exist.

> When was the last time y'all edited a system startup file on Microsoft
> Windows or Apple macOS systems, or with Apple iPhone or iPad apps, or
> Google Android apps, or whatever else you've recently installed apps?

Every time I installed something new.

I still get the impression we're not talking about the same things ..

-- 
David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450
Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc.      E-Mail: davef at tsoft-inc.com
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