[Info-vax] Licenses on VAX/VMS 4.0/4.1 source code listing scans

[Dave Froble]

On 12/12/2021 9:46 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On 12/11/21 8:13 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> On 12/11/2021 7:24 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>> On 12/11/21 3:23 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> On 12/11/2021 1:40 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>>> On 12/11/21 11:51 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>>> If there were then the salaries for Cobol programmer would
>>>>>> sky rocket.
>>>>>
>>>>> COBOL programmers have already been receiving 6 figure salaries.
>>>>> the biggest reason for the lack of publicly viewable job offerings
>>>>> has more to do with job stability than lack of jobs.
>>>>>
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Defense Finance and Accounting Service
>>>>>
>>>>> Salary
>>>>> $92,914 - $120,789 per year
>>>>>
>>>>> "Use Integrated Database Management System (IDMS), Common Business
>>>>> Oriented Language (COBOL), and Job Control Language (JCL) in a
>>>>> mainframe environment to design software for Payroll Systems used
>>>>> by the Defense Finance and Accounting Service."
>>>>>
>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> This announcement or similar ones has been running almost constantly
>>>>> for as long as I have been following the the business.  More than 20
>>>>> years.
>>>>
>>>> The above snippet does not say whether it is 0/5/10/20 years of
>>>> experienced they are looking for or whether it is in New York/Boston
>>>> /Seattle/San Francisco/Mountain View or Kansas/Arkansas
>>>> /Missouri/Alabama they are looking
>>>
>>> I didn't post the whole thing.  In typical government form it is
>>> several pages long with most of it being boilerplate.  DFAS is in
>>> Indiana (which is why I never applied for a position.)  Experience
>>> would be evaluated from your resume.  But minimum starting salary
>>> is still $95K.
>>
>> For Indiana and not top-10% then that is probably fine.
>>
>>>                     I would be happy with that.
>>
>> I suspect that you do not have a brand new astronomical mortgage
>> and 3 kids to put through college in a few years.
>
> I still have a mortgage and handle it just fine with my retirement
> check.  :-)  By the way, the average salary where I live is ion the
> 15K-20K range.  Someone earning what that job offered would be a
> king.  And, yes, we do have some jobs in that area.  And some of
> them are actually COBOL programmers.  (In the insurance business.)
>
>>
>>>                                                 How much are VMS
>>> programmers making these days?
>>
>> No idea. But probably similar to developers on other platforms.
>
> I guess a better question would have been what one could expect as
> a starting salary for VMS.  Most of the people doing VMS today are
> dinosaurs with long seniority, I am sure.
>
>>
>>>> So it is hard to say whether it is a great salary or a
>>>> crap salary.
>>>>
>>>> But it is not a sky rocket salary.
>>>
>>> Seriously?  I just took a quick look at Java Programmers on Indeed.
>>> Most of the jobs are for half of that.  And a lot of those were in
>>> NYC where a 1 bedroom apartment starts at $2000 a month.
>>
>> ????
>>
>> Average developer salaries in the US is somewhere in the 100-110 range.
>
> A quick perusal of Indeed seems to contradict that.  While some
> jobs list a high end over 100K the low end is usually 20K-40K.
> Amazon is paying 30K to stuff boxes around here.
>
>>
>> O'Reilly -
>> https://www.zdnet.com/article/heres-how-much-money-you-can-make-as-a-developer-in-2021/
>>
>>
>> Burning Glass / Dice -
>> https://insights.dice.com/2020/10/13/12-programming-languages-that-pay-ultra-high-salaries/
>>
>>
>> Glass Door / Octoparse -
>> https://www.octoparse.com/blog/15-highest-paying-programming-languages-in-2017
>>
>> Indeed / Daxx (Python only, but be state) -
>> https://www.daxx.com/blog/development-trends/python-developer-salary-usa
>>
>> Code Platoon -
>> https://www.codeplatoon.org/the-best-paying-and-most-in-demand-programming-languages-in-2021/
>>
>>
>> Statista / Indeed -
>> https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/highest-paid-programmers-by-language
>>
>
> I used to get the SANS pay survey results.  According to them
> I should have been  making well over $100K.  It never happened.
>
>>
>> There is obviously some uncertainty involved in such numbers.
>>
>> But given that they all end up with very similar numbers from
>> different sources, then they seems very plausible.
>
> Unless part of the purpose is to steer the crowd in a certain direction.
> After 25 years in academia I can assure I saw it happening.
>
>>
>> Trying to hire a Java developer in NYC for half of 95K is a joke.
>>
>> NYC salaries are significant higher than average due to high cost
>> of living.
>>
>> Java salaries are at average or slightly above - it is a sort of meat
>> and potato language today - solid demand - but not super hot.
>>
>> The latest and greatest tend to be a lot higher than average due to
>> demand exceeding supply.
>>
>> Rust, Go, Scala etc..
>>
>> A few years ago Ruby and Swift.
>
> Based on that you would expect COBOL to be at the top.  There is
> still demand.  DFAS and IRS constantly hiring.  Other places I
> have personal experience with also have a need.  And supply is
> very close to zero.  I am not aware of any University in the US
> today that offers even a basic course in COBOL programming.  Not
> even in their CIS degree programs.  They choose instead to attack
> COBOL if they mention it at all and steer students away from even
> looking at it.
>
> There was a Representative in Congress (from my State, actually)
> here that recently proposed a bill to fund a push to get legacy
> stuff (like COBOL) back into education because of the strong need
> for it in the IT world.  Someone like the department I used to
> work for could get as much as $2,000,000 in grant money and all
> they would have to do to qualify would be to offer courses in
> things like COBOL.  I told them about it.  No interest.  "Too
> much paperwork."  And yet the required paperwork was a mere
> fraction of what is required for your average NSF grant.  Think
> about that.  Teach one copurse that used to be on the books
> anyway 15 years ago and get $2,000,000.  And maybe more  next
> year.  Assuming you didn't want to divert current faculty to
> the task, you could hire a new faculty member for maybe $250,000
> to cover pay and benefits. $50,000 to get him and office and
> the rest is in the departments coffers.  And yet, no interest.
>
> How would you explain that?
>
> bill

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David Froble                       Tel: 724-529-0450
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