[Info-vax] Licenses on VAX/VMS 4.0/4.1 source code listing scans

[Bill Gunshannon]

On 12/12/21 11:50 AM, Dave Froble wrote:
> On 12/12/2021 9:46 AM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> On 12/11/21 8:13 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> On 12/11/2021 7:24 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>> On 12/11/21 3:23 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>> On 12/11/2021 1:40 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>>>> On 12/11/21 11:51 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>>>> If there were then the salaries for Cobol programmer would
>>>>>>> sky rocket.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> COBOL programmers have already been receiving 6 figure salaries.
>>>>>> the biggest reason for the lack of publicly viewable job offerings
>>>>>> has more to do with job stability than lack of jobs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Defense Finance and Accounting Service
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Salary
>>>>>> $92,914 - $120,789 per year
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Use Integrated Database Management System (IDMS), Common Business
>>>>>> Oriented Language (COBOL), and Job Control Language (JCL) in a
>>>>>> mainframe environment to design software for Payroll Systems used
>>>>>> by the Defense Finance and Accounting Service."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This announcement or similar ones has been running almost constantly
>>>>>> for as long as I have been following the the business.  More than 20
>>>>>> years.
>>>>>
>>>>> The above snippet does not say whether it is 0/5/10/20 years of
>>>>> experienced they are looking for or whether it is in New York/Boston
>>>>> /Seattle/San Francisco/Mountain View or Kansas/Arkansas
>>>>> /Missouri/Alabama they are looking
>>>>
>>>> I didn't post the whole thing.  In typical government form it is
>>>> several pages long with most of it being boilerplate.  DFAS is in
>>>> Indiana (which is why I never applied for a position.)  Experience
>>>> would be evaluated from your resume.  But minimum starting salary
>>>> is still $95K.
>>>
>>> For Indiana and not top-10% then that is probably fine.
>>>
>>>>                     I would be happy with that.
>>>
>>> I suspect that you do not have a brand new astronomical mortgage
>>> and 3 kids to put through college in a few years.
>>
>> I still have a mortgage and handle it just fine with my retirement
>> check.  :-)  By the way, the average salary where I live is ion the
>> 15K-20K range.  Someone earning what that job offered would be a
>> king.  And, yes, we do have some jobs in that area.  And some of
>> them are actually COBOL programmers.  (In the insurance business.)
>>
>>>
>>>>                                                 How much are VMS
>>>> programmers making these days?
>>>
>>> No idea. But probably similar to developers on other platforms.
>>
>> I guess a better question would have been what one could expect as
>> a starting salary for VMS.  Most of the people doing VMS today are
>> dinosaurs with long seniority, I am sure.
>>
>>>
>>>>> So it is hard to say whether it is a great salary or a
>>>>> crap salary.
>>>>>
>>>>> But it is not a sky rocket salary.
>>>>
>>>> Seriously?  I just took a quick look at Java Programmers on Indeed.
>>>> Most of the jobs are for half of that.  And a lot of those were in
>>>> NYC where a 1 bedroom apartment starts at $2000 a month.
>>>
>>> ????
>>>
>>> Average developer salaries in the US is somewhere in the 100-110 range.
>>
>> A quick perusal of Indeed seems to contradict that.  While some
>> jobs list a high end over 100K the low end is usually 20K-40K.
>> Amazon is paying 30K to stuff boxes around here.
>>
>>>
>>> O'Reilly -
>>> https://www.zdnet.com/article/heres-how-much-money-you-can-make-as-a-developer-in-2021/ 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Burning Glass / Dice -
>>> https://insights.dice.com/2020/10/13/12-programming-languages-that-pay-ultra-high-salaries/ 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Glass Door / Octoparse -
>>> https://www.octoparse.com/blog/15-highest-paying-programming-languages-in-2017 
>>>
>>>
>>> Indeed / Daxx (Python only, but be state) -
>>> https://www.daxx.com/blog/development-trends/python-developer-salary-usa
>>>
>>> Code Platoon -
>>> https://www.codeplatoon.org/the-best-paying-and-most-in-demand-programming-languages-in-2021/ 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Statista / Indeed -
>>> https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/highest-paid-programmers-by-language 
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I used to get the SANS pay survey results.  According to them
>> I should have been  making well over $100K.  It never happened.
>>
>>>
>>> There is obviously some uncertainty involved in such numbers.
>>>
>>> But given that they all end up with very similar numbers from
>>> different sources, then they seems very plausible.
>>
>> Unless part of the purpose is to steer the crowd in a certain direction.
>> After 25 years in academia I can assure I saw it happening.
>>
>>>
>>> Trying to hire a Java developer in NYC for half of 95K is a joke.
>>>
>>> NYC salaries are significant higher than average due to high cost
>>> of living.
>>>
>>> Java salaries are at average or slightly above - it is a sort of meat
>>> and potato language today - solid demand - but not super hot.
>>>
>>> The latest and greatest tend to be a lot higher than average due to
>>> demand exceeding supply.
>>>
>>> Rust, Go, Scala etc..
>>>
>>> A few years ago Ruby and Swift.
>>
>> Based on that you would expect COBOL to be at the top.  There is
>> still demand.  DFAS and IRS constantly hiring.  Other places I
>> have personal experience with also have a need.  And supply is
>> very close to zero.  I am not aware of any University in the US
>> today that offers even a basic course in COBOL programming.  Not
>> even in their CIS degree programs.  They choose instead to attack
>> COBOL if they mention it at all and steer students away from even
>> looking at it.
>>
>> There was a Representative in Congress (from my State, actually)
>> here that recently proposed a bill to fund a push to get legacy
>> stuff (like COBOL) back into education because of the strong need
>> for it in the IT world.  Someone like the department I used to
>> work for could get as much as $2,000,000 in grant money and all
>> they would have to do to qualify would be to offer courses in
>> things like COBOL.  I told them about it.  No interest.  "Too
>> much paperwork."  And yet the required paperwork was a mere
>> fraction of what is required for your average NSF grant.  Think
>> about that.  Teach one copurse that used to be on the books
>> anyway 15 years ago and get $2,000,000.  And maybe more  next
>> year.  Assuming you didn't want to divert current faculty to
>> the task, you could hire a new faculty member for maybe $250,000
>> to cover pay and benefits. $50,000 to get him and office and
>> the rest is in the departments coffers.  And yet, no interest.
>>
>> How would you explain that?
>>
>> bill
> 
> Ego
> 
> We're smarter than you are, do what we say
> 
> Desire to impose one's expectations on others
> 
> Human intellegence is a myth
> 
> 

Exactly.  Those of us who have been around since before then
watched it happen.  OOP came out.  Academia pushed it as the
ultimate paradigm. Languages that had been around successfully
doing what they did for decades grafted OOP into their languages
and forced it down people's throats.  Object COBOL came out.
COBOL practitioners of the art laughed and announced that the
emperor really had no clothes on at all and refused to re-write
all their applications in the new paradigm.  Academia's reaction
was to take a page out of the Amish rule book.  They shunned COBOL.
They stopped teaching it even in CIS courses where it was still
the most practical language to get the job done.  They attacked
it claiming weaknesses that didn't exist.  They told students
that even learning COBOL would ruin them as programmers (shades
of Dijkstra!!)

And the rest is, as they say, history.  It is also why I don't
expect to ever see the trend reversed.  Academia never admits
a mistake.  Now, if we could just get the Trade Schools to start
teaching CIS....

bill