[Info-vax] Rust as a HS language, was: Re: Quiet?

[Arne Vajhøj]

On 4/4/2022 1:56 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2022-04-04, Arne Vajhøj <arne at vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>> On 4/4/2022 8:28 AM, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>> 2) No official ISO or similar language standard I can rely on 5/10/20 years
>>> from now when I need to work on my safety or general production critical
>>> code at that point.
>>>
>>> Even though many of the Rust people appear not to understand this, the
>>> lack of those guarantees is a _massive_ problem in the real world.
>>
>> Not really. Lot of popular languages are not formally standardized.
>> Python and PHP are not standardized. C# is/was standardized but the
>> standard is 6 versions behind. It took 13 years before C++ got
>> standardized.
> 
> You have just made my point for me Arne. Or to put it another way,
> Python 2 to Python 3.
> 
> Why wasn't Python 3 just another language mode in the existing compiler
> instead of being a whole different compiler ?

(ignoring that I would not call Python a compiler)

The language has evolved. Most languages does.

They could have chosen to prioritize backwards compatibility higher.
Let us call it "Java approach".

They could have introduced a compatibility mode. Let us call it
"DEC C approach".

But they did not.

Would difference decisions have been made if it had been an ISO
committee and not a BDFL?

I don't know.

If the same people were making the decision then they may likely have
made the same decision. Whether they have a "core team" hat or an
"ISO WG member" hat should not change their opinion.

> Why did Python 2.7 stay around for as long as it did ? How many are still
> using it these days due to an existing code base ?

That people have old code bases that they build with old compilers or
run with old interpreters is not Python specific. Lots of companies
are buried in technical debt.

> I can compile C89 code on a compiler 33 years later. When another standard
> for C is released, it becomes just another language mode in the existing
> compilers and all the existing C standards are still supported.

That is a choice. They can change it if they want to.

> How confident are you that I can compile C89 code in yet another 10 years ?

Compatibility seems to be a priority so that seems extremely likely.

> In comparison, how confident are you that I can compile existing Python 3
> or Rust code in another 10 years ?

Python - pretty sure. I believe the Python community learned the
lesson. Nobody expects an incompatible Python 4.

Rust - no idea. I don't follow the Rust community enough to know.

> What's to stop the Rust people from having some great language revamp a
> few years from now and then stop supporting the existing language variant ?

Obviously nothing.

Same applies to all languages.

You will have to evaluate. Do they claim they want to stay compatible?
Do you have faith in them do as they say? What is the community opinion?

I don't even know what the Rust people say about this.

But if they don't prioritize compatibility and you do, then it is
of course a reason to not pick rust.

>>> 3) Unlike mainstream programming languages, the Rust community always
>>> seems to be lurching from one social drama to the next.
>>>
>>> That in itself is an instant switchoff because the community is one
>>> major social crisis away from falling apart (at least until it's then
>>> rebuilt and a new direction emerges).
>>>
>>> You can't rely on a programming language when something like that is
>>> a real possibility. You wouldn't see social crisis stuff on the C/C++/Ada
>>> language standards groups for example.
>>
>> I don't think the number of heated discussions in the rust community
>> is unique. They may be a bit more transparent about it than most. And
>> the "internet tabloid press" loves that type of stuff. But has anything
>> actually been significant delayed due to it?
>>
> 
> I'm talking about the social stuff, not the technical stuff.
> 
> It's the stuff that can become so toxic, it can cause a community
> itself to become damaged.

Yes. Big headlines in the internet tabloids. No impact.

Arne