[Info-vax] OpenVMS async I/O, fast vs. slow

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2023-11-07 01:54, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 11/6/2023 8:07 AM, bill wrote:
>> On 11/6/2023 5:58 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>>> On 2023-11-05 16:58, bill wrote:
>>>
>>>> We have so many "colleges" teaching trade school courses (like diesel
>>>> mechanics, HVAC welding and even motorcycle mechanics)I really wish
>>>> trade schools would step up to the plate ad start teaching IT and in
>>>> particular thing like COBOL, Fortran and PL/I.  They are not going 
>>>> away.
>>>
>>> Academia should not teach languages. If they do, they are clearly not 
>>> doing the right thing.
>>
>> I hear this all the time.  Believe it or not, in a way, it is a debate
>> that has been going on for centuries.  Should college teach trades or
>> just liberal arts and leave the trades to others?  Like it or not, the
>> majority of college students are there with a belief that they will
>> learn something that will enhance their future earnings and not just to
>> expand their minds.
>>
>> As for teaching languages. Every program I have ever seen taught
>> languages.
>>
>>> They should teach methods, principles, concepts, ideas.
>>
>> They teach that, too, but without detailed knowledge of a language
>> it really doesn't do much for the student.
> 
> They need a language to write code to see the principles
> applied.

Indeed.

> To really understand what is general and what is specific
> for the language they need more than one language.
> 
> I would expect a CS degree to give knowledge of about 3-5
> languages.
> 
> Most learn Python and Java today. But other languages are
> seen: OCAML, Haskell, C#, C++, C, PHP, JavaScript etc..
> 
> After that they should be able to learn new languages.

Hmm. Let's see... When I was at University, we did (more or less in order):
Lisp
C
Prolog
Assmbler (68000)
SQL
Lexx
Yacc
Ada
C++

And then we also did some industry automation system, and some imaginary 
CPUs to write our own microcode as well as some hypothetical 
architecture for which we wrote compilers (actually, it was close to a 
PDP-10, for fun).

I might have forgotten some language(s) as well. But I think it's clear 
it's way more than 3-5 languages.

But the point was never about "this is what you will work with in the 
real world", but now we're going to write a compiler for some imagined 
language, targetting some imaginary CPU. For that you will need Lexx and 
Yacc. So now you'll have to learn those tools/languages.

And to make things more clear:
Lisp was used for a course in program methology. C for data structures 
and algorithms. Later also for operating systems. Prolog - logic 
processing and natural language processing. Assembler - computer 
architecture. SQL - Databases. Ada - structured programming and large 
software systems (Ada have some really interesting and nice properties 
for that). C++ for object oriented cruft.

> The time to learn a language depends on the complexity
> of the language. It will be a lot faster to learn Cobol
> than Ada95.

Sure. But this is really a minor thing anyway.

>>> The language is just a tool. You need to learn and use different 
>>> tools all the time. That you could/should learn at the place where it 
>>> is used/needed. 
>>
>> The old OJT idea.  But most places expect when they hire you you will
>> hit the ground running.  Thus the reason for this latest craze for
>> "certification".  HR places a value on them.  The government requires
>> them.  I really see little value in something you learned over the
>> weekend in a boot camp and probably forgot by Teusday.
>>
>>>               And if you have all the teachings from academia, that 
>>> should be an easy thing.
>>
>> Not necessarily easy, but doable.  But, how many hiring managers are
>> going to be willing to wait for you to learn something they expected
>> you to learn in college before you can provide any value to the company?
> 
> If you hire someone with work experience then you may decide to
> go for someone with experience in the languages and frameworks to
> be used. After all you may need someone to teach those without that
> experience if such skills are not present already in the org.

Indeed. If you hire someone experienced, then the question of language 
specific knowledge is interesting. But then we are talking about someone 
who have already extensive previous experience with the language. It's 
not related to academia.

> But if you hire someone right out of college, then it is really
> sub-optimal to hire based on their skills in the specific
> languages and frameworks. The level is not that high anyway and
> it will only take a few months for those without those skills
> to catch up. So it is really about hiring those that are
> generally good.

Yeah. These guys don't know much about anything anyway, and language 
skills are pretty pointless. They will not be a good indicator if they 
are a good hire or not at all. There are other things that you need to 
look for to tell if it is a good hire or not.

   Johnny