[Info-vax] Eisner's PAKs, was: Re: Can't get hobbyist licenses from Openvmshobbyist

[Bill Gunshannon]

In article <m9mem1$tr4$1 at dont-email.me>,
	David Froble <davef at tsoft-inc.com> writes:
> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> In article <m9m2cc$7vh$1 at dont-email.me>,
>> 	David Froble <davef at tsoft-inc.com> writes:
>>> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>
>>>> Nothing anyone does is going to get VMS back into academia.  That
>>>> ship has sailed.  It would be unwise to base any decision on the
>>>> possiblity of it making a return.  Sorry to rain on your parade.
>>> Well, like the title of the movie, "never say never".
>> 
>> Anything is possible in fiction.
>> 
>>> But, I agree with what you're saying.  If it doesn't happen, well, too 
>>> bad, but not a loss.
>>>
>>> However, in another post I suggested that buildable sources be made 
>>> available, with appropriate restrictions.  Now, if VSI made the 
>>> buildable sources available, and made some pitches to education, such as 
>>> "teach your students on a commercial OS, not some toy", 
>> 
>> What commercial OS?  The only "commercial" oses they know about are
>> Windows and Unix/Linux.  Other than VMS, I have been trying to get
>> this place interested in joining IBM's educational alliance.  Everybody
>> has heard of IBM and yet I have had about the same success I had with VMS.
>> 
>>>                                                          it's not 
>>> impossible that there might be some takers.
>> 
>> Spoken like someone outside of academia.   :-)
>> 
>> Even given your miracle scenario, who is going to pay the Professors
>> to create entirely new curicula using VMS instead of the OS that has
>> been used to teach Computer Science for over 4 decades?  Or did you
>> think they just stand in the front of the room and talk off the cuff?
>> Course development takes a lot of time and effort and there has to be
>> a good reason for doing it.  Pushing something as obscure as VMS is
>> not likely to meet that criteria.  Let's try sticking to reality.  
>> 
>> bill
>> 
> 
> Nit picking, but 4 decades would be 1975, if I can still do math.  VMS 
> did not come out until 1978, and at one time was used in education.

I didn't say VMS, I said "the OS that has  been used to teach Computer
Science for over 4 decades" and I am sure you know which one that is.

> 
> Now, maybe not at your school, but, there are many schools, and I cannot 
                                            ^^^
                                           were

> believe that there might not be a VMS bigot somewhere in education that 
> given a decent chance just might offer a course that is based on VMS.

You, obviously, know nothing about academia.  Professors are more
interested in driving the bus than meeting the needs of the riders. 
Thus the reason why VMS is gone.  As well as COBOL, Fortran and
anything else that doesn't meet their expectations, no matter where
it actually stands in the industry.  It's the reason why X-11 never
got finished.  And SMTP is still a 30 year old protocol that fails
to meet today's requirements.  Academia has a very short attention
span.  And none of that even touches on the reason I already stated.
Creating a new course is very work intensive.  There has to be a real
good reason to do it because professors aren't paid extra when they
decide to revamp a course.  They have to do it all on their own time.
How much work are you willing to do for nothing?  And if there is no
real requirement for you to do it?  I work with 10 Professors.  9 of
them have been here since VMS was the primary academic computing
environment.  None of them have any interest in doing anything with
VMS and most of them don't even remember enough of it to be users,
much less teach about it's internals.  I know, I still bring the subject
up once in a while.

> 
> For you to say that no where on the planet this could happen is a bit 
> rash, don't you think?

No, because I live in reality.  I have over 25 years of experience in
academia.  I have been involved in the development of  new courses and
in changing curricula (when I got here Pascal was used in the intro
course, then Ada, now Java and we are talking lately about if it is
time to consider something else, like Python).   Read all that I have
said.  IBM has a very active academic program and has very limited
acceptance even with testimonials from some of the schools who are
current members.  VMS has no presence in academia and hasn't for at
least a decade.  And still you think they are going to jump on the
bandwagon so easily?  Reality check!!!

Now, I am not saying they shouldn't try.  Create a usable (unlike HP's)
educational program, publicize it and hope for the best.  But I would
not recommend investing any resources that can be put to better use
somewhere else because the likelihood of success is very slim and ROI
is what matters the most.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999 at cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>