[Info-vax] Programming languages on VMS

[Bill Gunshannon]

On 02/03/2018 10:10 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 1/31/2018 3:48 PM, seasoned_geek wrote:
>> On Wednesday, January 24, 2018 at 9:36:04 AM UTC-6, DaveFroble wrote:
>>>
>>> John, you know a bit about languages.  Let me ask a question.
>>>
>>> I'll preface the question by admitting that I view much of the "new 
>>> languages"
>>> as some people who just want to "re-invent the wheel".
>>>
>>> Do the "new languages" actually present more and better capabilities?
>>
>> offering 0.0002 cents here.
>>
>> The new languages are targeted at "script kiddies."
> 
> That sounds extremely bad.
> 
> You do know what "script kiddies" mean right?
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Script_kiddie
> 
> I suspect that the big corporations and open source projects
> behind new languages would be very sad to hear that you believe
> their effort is targeting those.

Well, big corporations aren't making these scripting languages.  I
tend to think of  them as ego trips for the creator as in most cases
they weren't really needed and provide  nothing we didn't already have.

> 
>>                                                     The reason for 
>> that is
>> colleges collect tuition while teaching absolutely nothing about real IT.
> 
> Some of them learn something.

While I agree with some of the things he has to say, this thing
about colleges seems to hint that maybe he flunked out and is
now disgruntled.  A lot like one student we had who came in
talking about how he had been "running" a computer business since
his freshman year of high school so he didn't understand why he
needed to take all those basic (level, not language) courses like
Discrete Math and Data Structures.  While he did eventually get a
degree it was only after failing and returning numerous times and
it took over ten years.

> 
>> These kids wouldn't know what a debugger was because everything they 
>> write is interpreted.
> 
> I am sure many of them:
> * have tried compiled languages
> * have tried debugger
> * unlike you are aware that interpreted languages can be debugged

All of our students do compiled languages, IDE's, debuggers and at
some point interpreted languages, as well.  The first language they
learn now is Java (a development from Fortran -> Pascal -> Ada ->Java).
And like it or not, it is a compiled language.  Byte code is the machine
language of the JVM and no different from the machine language of any
other processor.  There have even been systems who did what the JVM
does in hardware so that the "machine language" was exactly like Byte
code.  Any machine with a microcoded CPU is such.  And you also have
the Western Digital Pascal Microengine which implemented UCSD P-code
in hardware.

> 
>> Right after New Years I spent an evening at a friend's house. Yes, I
>> have friends. He and his wife had been bugging me to come visit for a
>> while so I scheduled it. He's rather high up in his company and they
>> are in the world of Finance, not banking. He flat out told me the
>> only resumes he sees with a database on it are from kids who taught
>> themselves programming. They got a college degree in IT without ever
>> learning a database or SQL. >
>> Colleges today are hawking worthless skills: AGILE and extreme OOP.
> 
> Not sure that it is so bad.

On this, I agree.  Both are very bad.  One in its entirety and the other
based on the importance people seem to give it.

> 
> Illinois State University
> 
> https://illinoisstate.edu/downloads/catalog/it.pdf
> 
> offers:
> 
> 378 DATABASE PROCESSING
> 3 sem. hrs.
> Database concepts, emphasis on relational databases, SQL,
> data modeling, database design, DBMS functions, database
> application programming, current trends, design project.
> Prerequisites: Grade of C or better in IT 261. Major or
> minor only or consent of the school advisor.
> 
> and:
> 
> 272 COBOL AS A SECOND LANGUAGE
> 4 sem. hrs.
> COBOL language for students with substantial programming
> experience in another language. Emphasizes structured
> problem-solving and programming. Prerequisites:
> Grade of C or better in IT 178. Major or minor only or consent
> of the school advisor.

Careful with this one.  The real question should be when was the
last time this course was offered.  We carried COBOL on the books
for over a decade without offering it once until the curriculum
committee had it removed from the catalog. What COBOL students
learned during the period was in a course called File Processing
which was done in COBOL until they finally drove COBOL out of
the department completely (over my objections!)

> 
> but nothing about agile at all.

I am sure they learn of Agile if not in more detail.  It would be
in courses like:

       326 PRINCIPLES OF SOFTWARE ENGINEERING
       262 INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY PROJECT MANAGEMENT 

       191 INTRODUCTION TO IT PROFESSIONAL PRACTICE

And, maybe one or two others.


> 
> :-)
> 
>> When C++ first came out, it had some issues, but was rather
>> groundbreaking. Now it is being dragged into the world of extreme OOP
>> with lambdas and other such things.
> I would also expect todays CS students to have learned that lambdas is a
> FP concept not an OOP concept.

Thus what you see with people who have not learned the basics
of computing.

bill